Whether this is a good solution or not, whether it works in other countries or not, the costs are out of control and the current system just isn’t working for too many people.
Most Support U.S. Guarantee of Health Care
A majority of Americans say the federal government should guarantee health insurance to every American, especially children, and are willing to pay higher taxes to do it, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.
[…]access to affordable health care is at the top of the public’s domestic agenda, ranked far more important than immigration, cutting taxes or promoting traditional values.
Only 24 percent said they were satisfied with President Bush’s handling of the health insurance issue, despite his recent initiatives, and 62 percent said the Democrats were more likely to improve the health care system.
Americans showed a striking willingness in the poll to make tradeoffs to guarantee health insurance for all, including paying as much as $500 more in taxes a year and forgoing future tax cuts.
[…]Americans remain divided, largely along party lines, over whether the government should require everyone to participate in a national health care plan, and over whether the government would do a better job than the private insurance industry in providing coverage.
Nearly 47 million people in the United States, or more than 15 percent of the population, now go without health insurance, up 6.8 million since 2000.
[…]
Nearly 8 in 10 said they thought it was more important to provide universal access to health insurance than to extend the tax cuts of recent years; 18 percent said the tax cuts were more important.
I can see the average American being told there will be a three month wait for the MRI, if it doesn’t break down. Nation Health is a good idea, but cost cutters and politicians ends up wreaking the system. Tax credits for insurance coverage is a better short term solution in this country. Of course you’ll have to force private insurers to take people that aren’t Olympic athletes. That’s another problem, some people with serious health problems can’t get insured, even if they can pay the premiums.
I want to become an illigal alien,…. free healthcare. There, that was easy! Everyone should file for illigal alien status!!
I want my health care delivered with all the efficiency of the U.S. Postal Service and all the compassion of the IRS.
I want my doctors to operate under rules and regulations mandated by Congress and approved by the Supreme Court.
“I am from the Government and I am here to help you with your health care.” will by my motto, my watch-word and my sufficiency.
If you believe that government operated schools, government regulated cell phone and broadband industries and go are good things, then support socialized medicine.
I will continute to trust in those folks who brought us the Digital Millenium Copyright Act to understand my helath care needs.
the nut
Ah, well — I doubt if Uncle Dave expected rational discussion from the Right side of the aisle.
The fact remains that even a federal agency can function with efficiency. The SSA is rated at requiring less than 3% of gross product needed to run that body. Most corporations can’t approach that rating — and Bush hasn’t managed to destroy it, yet.
I find the French approach to be most productive — cost effective, at least. There. That should tip off the neocon nutcases automatically.
When they debated prenatal care as necessary to the good of the whole nation (what a concept) they ended up deciding to proceed with a blanket guarantee of a safe minimum level of free care. They figured avoiding all the bureacratic crap of deciding who made too much > who wasn’t resident long enough > etc., would save enough money to compensate for the creeps who would try to sneak in under the radar.
Said creeps ending up being — as predicted at the time — dweebs who made enough money to pay for very good coverage on their own; but, were cheapskates.
But, then, we’re back to neocons, again, aren’t we?
4. “I’m sure Most Americans would agree that it would be good if grocery stores and car dealerships gave away their products for free too.”
Learn how socialized medical systems work before commenting. It’s not free, everyone and everything is paid out of taxes.
And by the way, your grocery analogy is actually pretty funny. With all of the subsidies farmers get in the US, and combined with all of the corporate welfare that corporations are getting, you could actually consider grocery stores in the US to be socialized grocery stores. As the prices are in no way derived from a free market system.
I want to become an illigal alien,…. free healthcare. There, that was easy! Everyone should file for illigal alien status!!
I’m sure Most Americans would agree that it would be good if grocery stores and car dealerships gave away their products for free too.
I want my health care delivered with all the efficiency of the U.S. Postal Service and all the compassion of the IRS.
Translation:
I can afford insurance and pay the deductibles when necessary; the rest of you can go fuck yourselves.
#8 “Learn how socialized medical systems work before commenting.”
You should do that…
I came to this country from the place with the universal healthcare and can testify that all items people mentioned above (incredible waiting schedules, technology in disrepair, doctors with no competitive zeal,…) are true. My personal worst example (and I’ll ignore hours of waiting just before it and months of scheduling that actually worsened my condition) was root canal dental work with topical anesthesia because the one-time-cost of straps on the dental chair is cheaper than pain prevention for everyone. And yes, everyone paid from their pocket in form of taxes for this… (our taxation rate was 64 percent due to many such great public services).
Government should keep their hands out of this arena as case after case all over the world proves that they will fail. And I save my top problem for the end. If government is providing universal healthcare using everyones tax dollars it is in “everyones” interest to be healthy as government prescribes. Good examples (and some already occured in the countries with such systems): You smoke? No heart treatment for you it would be waste… Ban the foods goverment doesn’t like you to eat “because it will cost everyone”, ex. soda, sweets, burgers,… just give them time and they’ll feed us with prescribed “gloop”.
Finally, all these studies are ill prepared for two main reasons: questions are “preloaded” to seem as everyone would get care they curreently get (which is utopian); no education about what happens with similar systems arround the world is given to the population (hence they don’t realize their opinions are utopian as well).
Guaranteed health care should be a fundamental right of citizens in a country as rich in cash as the US. Unfortunately, it’s also rich in corruption and greed as well…
What is it about American politics that makes people so polarized? Can you not see the benefits of health care for all? You allow your government to fuck things up. Maybe you should change that first.
How many billions are spent on the Iraq war? For what? With one tenth of that cost you could have health care for everyone. Permanently.
http://tinyurl.com/yvgr4p
And for you tax cutting neocons, how about the future leaders of your country?
http://tinyurl.com/2ot7ax
10. Back in 4 you wrote: “I’m sure Most Americans would agree that it would be good if grocery stores and car dealerships gave away their products for free too.” In 8 I pointed out that your analogy was ludicrous. That’s all.
Merely because your analogy was ludicrous does not mean I’m in favor of socialized healthcare. In fact, if you bothered to read my comment in 1 you’ll learn that I’m against it for all the reasons you provided.
I think a distinction should be made between access and delivery – In Canada (where I’m from) our system has universality on both access and delivery – Many people believe that, that is the cause of our system turning into a huge unsustainable money pit.
However, many of these critics (myself included) think that we should do away with the “nationalizing” of health care “delivery” and just keep and maintain universal access (which by the way is maintained provincially – some provinces have their health insurance paid through income tax – some do charge a monthly premium). Which is the direction that countries like the UK, France and even Sweden are heading and are meeting with success.
In other words, have the insurance administrated by the government – and the delivery maintained by the private sector (under strict regulation by the government).
I think that the distinction between “access” and “delivery” has to be made clear in this debate – especially if the US is looking for models to change their health care system.
So US taxpayers want guaranteed health care and are willing to pay up to $500 annually in tax to pay for it.
Great. Except health care costs $500 A MONTH to provide. I wonder what the survey response would be like if the question was “Are you will to pay at least an additional $6000 a year in tax for health care? – And the poor won’t have to pay, so if you have slightly above average income, be prepared to pay a lot more.”
I live in BC, Canada. I pay $54 in premiums each month for medical care. This does not come close to the cost of the service, so I also pay considerably more in income tax. The provincial government here is telling us that the budget for health care is now near 50% of all government expenditures and is rising by 8-10% each year. Which means within 10 years 100% of the entire government budget will be consumed by paying for “free” health care. That leaves 0% for everything else – like education, police, fire department etc.
Also, more than half of the tax revenue in BC comes from taxes paid by companies for exploiting the natural resources of the province: coal, natural gas, forests, etc. So we’re actually paying less income tax than would otherwise be required to pay for all our wonder government services. In 20 years, when the entire natural gas supply of the province is expected to be used up, we’ll either have to pay at least double income tax, or maybe give up our “free” health care.
For those that want socialized medicine, consider the following: Would you want the Bush administration managing your health care? Said in more generic terms, would you want an administration/party you despise running your health care?
Socializing medicine equates to giving an already too powerful Federal government too much power. If you really want socialized medicine, encourage your State to create it. You do not need to wait for a Federal government. Why don’t we let some crazy liberal State put in socialized medicine and see how it goes for 20 years or so. Let them work out the kinks.
Since when is medicare “socialized medicine”? The only aspect that is socialized is the payer, not the provider.
One way to pay for a national health care program is to take money away from the military budget.
But this is America, do you really think that will happen?
Of course, education, science and social security have all been hit with budget cuts.
yeah ……. if i do not have health insurance little else matters. i need to authorize the govt in exchange for my purchased votes to steal my neighbors money so like i can have “free” health care by govt…….hi…… i am from the govt …and i am here to help.
you gotta take a stupid pill to believe the left has ideas worthy of consideration.
11,
You’ve missed the point. your government is in the pocket of corps. Laws are made with corps in power and you know what? The same creeps keep getting elected.
Pursuit of happiness is great when the population is 10K and they’re busy killing Injuns, but times have changed and so the environment has to as well.
Governments are known and loved for their boondoggles. But, at least the people have an avenue to move them out and bring in some fresh meat. Unfortunately, the don’t always do that.
Be aware that IF this does happen…
what are your taxes going to look like??
With Corps setting the prices….you will be paying for it, EVEN if you dont USE it.
that should be to 12, not 11…
20,
Well, one of the great things of civilization and democracy is to provide for the weakest members and not the strongest. When your founders created your country it was a republic. It’s no longer a republic. It’s now a federalist union. Strong central government is your hallmark now, in case you didn’t notice.
Now, if your people and businesses didn’t have to pay for healthcare from their pockets, it leaves more money for other things. This is why transit systems, power systems and the like are always started by government. It’s not profitable and shouldn’t be profitable. It should exist to make the country better and the people free to do the things they need too. Of course, you probably like an Enron energy system where they traded weather systems on the market.
most of you ignorant whiners about corporations could not even define what a corporation is.
26,
Wow. That was a useless comment.
27 re 26 – It was stupid, too. And irrelevant to what has been a pretty decent and informative trading of viewpoints, not just from the left. But for those who can’t think or discuss, maybe attack seems like the only available tactic.
Anybody on here a blue collar worker? Own your own small business? Unless you work for corporate America it is almost impossible for the little guy to afford health care. It is a crying shame that we squander money on foreign aid while Americans go without health care and decent housing. I’m not talking about the obvious welfare cases here either. You people who have degrees and good jobs should have a little compassion for your own country men. Yes I know that you had to work for for it but there are millions out there that can’t cut it when it comes to college or tech schools. These people are regulated to what amounts to slave labor(minimum wage) and often times with no benefits. Lawyers have to do pro bono work, why not doctors?
29, I know you mean well, I really do think you believe what you say, but if you take your thinking through to its logical conclusion you are basically saying you have a right to someone else’s life.
By saying that a doctors (or for the matter lawyers) are required to give their time, and talents to someone else against that doctors will, and without pay, you are in a sense saying that you own the person, at least for that time that you are indenturing them.
I know you meant well, but you just legalized slavery.
8, 13, 15, 20 all bring up points that make this discussion interesting.
I’m a physician and have always wondered if we just take away the age 65 limit from Medicare eligibility, we could implement a national health care system.
It’s a pre-existing system with many bugs worked out. Private insurance still has opportunities to sell supplement coverage. And it’s fair, not great, but fair and less messy than the 1992 initiative that the Clinton administration attempted to legislate.
The biggest question that stands is “How would we fund this?”
I don’t even live in the US and even I know that your health care system is outrageously expensive compared to other countries, unequal and has much to improve on. Why do you then defend it so much? I could go on, but it is too late to continue…
I too used to believe all this bullshit about how universal health care won’t work or will cost too much…
I’m in a fairly high tax bracket, and pay more than my share in taxes. Recently I lost my job. I was left with no health care at all. Yes, I could pay for and get Cobra coverage, but the cost was $750 per month. The unemployment check would have barely covered that. Obviously that was totally out of the question. So here I am, having paid over $10K/year in taxes for 20 plus years, cut off at my knees. Really makes one start to wonder about the how this could be possible.
Right now we have some 46 million citizens of this country without health insurance. Who do you think is paying for their care when they can’t get into see a regular doctor and have to go to the emergency room because their easily treatable condition has become life-threatening?
Health care in the country represents 15% of our total GDP. This is projected to climb to 20% in the next ten years. Most other countries are somewhere around 8-9%. Yet we have one of the highest infant mortality rates among “civilized” nations. We rank something like 40th in the world for infant mortality. I thought we were supposes to have the best health care anywhere. In 2005 the WHO ranked us 37th in the world on health care performance.
The average cost in this country for family coverage is nearly $10K/year. The cost of this to small and medium sized companies is becoming crippling. Many companies are facing the real possibility of scaling back employer contributions significantly or discontinuing health coverage completely. Premiums are growing by about 9% per year on average. We’re paying for these health costs in everything we buy. For example, $1500 of every GM car goes to paying health insurance premiums.
We can either keep sticking our heads in the sand and pretending the issue will go away, or we can work to make a better system. Our current health care system isn’t working now, and it’s only going to get worse.
THE core issues are control and money. Universal Health Care gives the government FAR too much power. You can already see the problems in Britain where they want to control what kids eat. Money is the other big issue. Right now, in California, it is not difficult to get into a situation where you are paying 50% of your income to the government not including sales tax. I shudder to think what universal health care would do to that figure.
I come back to what I said earlier. If you think that universal health care will work, implement it in your State. Let’s wait 20 years and see how it does. Remember Oregon? They considered the idea four years ago. It was estimated that it would cost $20 billion per year. The State budget at the time was $16 billion.
> This nation is built on the back breaking sweat equity of
> the working poor. I hear a lot about the virtues of self
> made wealth… but that really isn’t a realistic thing. The
> working poor create wealth for others and recieve none of
> the creature comfort afforded the owning class. I think the
> least we can do is make health care available to all.
You don’t seriously believe this? How are we defining poor? 10K per year annual income? 100K per year? One could just as easily claim that “the nation is built on the back breaking sweat equity of the wealthy” by simply defining wealth to be anyone making $20K or more. The fact of the matter is that the market system is not a zero sum game. Just because someone is getting richer does not necessarily mean someone else is getting poorer.
When I encounter liberals that want socialized medicine, I usually give them this example that typically ends the discussion. Suppose you break your arm and you go to the hospital. Further let’s suppose that there is some new super advanced cast and various drugs that will help you heal your arm in a week or they could use a pair of boards to make an old fashioned splint and have it heal in about six weeks. Under universal health care are they obliged to give you the advanced cast or the splint? (The example can be expanded to others such as prosthetics, artificial organs and so on.) In other words, does universal health care imply an obligation to give you the best care available or just enough to keep you living and who gets to draw the line between what is “enough” and what is required?
Overhead of Medicare: about 2%. Overhead of an HMO: 17-25%. Which seems like a more efficient payer to you? We spend almost double the percentage of GDP per capita as even countries with nationalized healthcare, and yet we still have millions uninsured and underinsured. Hey, we won the cold war after all those years of fear, so where’s my dividend for having won it, and why are we still spending more than half of our nation’s taxes on the military? I”m truly not afraid of Canada or Mexico. Oh wait….we need those troops and those bases overseas to defend the interests of multinational corporations.
A few of things to think about regarding universal health care.
(1) Canada: We can’t look at Canada as an example of what is right or wrong with universal health care. This is because Canada is in a unique situation where those with the means (money), can buy the best medical care by going go the US. Having that option skews their experience.
In other words, Canada doesn’t exists in a vacuum. The ease of access to world class medical care across the border gives Canada flexibility that we in the US would not have. They have a back door for their influential wealthy.
(2) Australia: I think the US should look to Australia as a model. This is because Australia is more like the US. People in Australia don’t really have the ease of going overseas for medical care they can’t get at home.
(3) Business: Taking the burden of medical care off of corporate America will, in the long run, be a good thing. The costs of medical care is bankrupting the private pensions, which we as taxpayers are going to be stuck paying for anyhow (thanks to the pension guarantee insurance). So if we have to pay for it, then we as taxpayers should have some say in it, rather than just hand over more piles of cash.
(4) Choice: One thing I like about the Australian system is how they balance private and public medical insurance. The bottom line is that everyone has medical insurance. With the private medical insurance, which costs tax-deductible money, you can see private doctors.
(5) Oregon: The state of Oregon had gone through the whole exercise of creating an state wide medical care system. They had developed lists of medical services and procedures, costs, and coverage limits. The whole thing went down in flames when it came time to implements reasonable limits on what the state is liable for. That is too bad. They did a lot of ground work that should not be thrown away.
(6) Oregon Part II: Oregon has a system in place where low-income households get their private medical insurance subsidized by the state. So if you are unemployed, or part of the working poor, you don’t have to do without medical insurance. The state pays the premiums directly. No money goes into the hands of the covered so it doesn’t get diverted for buying crack or booze.
(7) Illegal Aliens: I think if universal medical care is implemented, then it should cover anyone who is inside US borders. Once the taxpayers become liable for illegal’s medical care, then I hope it will pressure Congress and the President into controlling our borders instead of the half-ass job they do now to benefit business.
Probelms with health care…
1. Cost. medical Equipment is the worst, insurance is a close second.
2. materials. you would think that IF there were enough buying a product, the price would go down…IT DONT.
3. enough. enough people going to 1 doctor to make it a living..