NPR also has a podcast of the debate. Unfortunately, it’s only in RealAudio.
Is America too damn religious?
As if it weren’t provocative enough to hold a debate on religion in America, panelists in a recent debate were tasked with answering the following: “Is America Too Damn Religious?”
The event was part of a series of Oxford-style debates called Intelligence Squared U.S. Produced in New York City by WNYC, it is based on the Intelligence Squared program that began in London in 2002. Three experts argue in favor of the motion; three others argue against it.
In a vote before the debate, about 67 % of the audience agreed with the motion. After hearing the debate, more than 70 %agreed with the motion, roughly 24 % were opposed and about 5 % were undecided, concluding that America is in fact “too damn religious.”
Susan Jacoby, author of Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism: “We must first talk about the retrograde form of religion that holds one-third of Americans in thrall. This is the proportion of Americans who say that they believe every word in the Bible is literally true. Not merely inspired by God but the literal handwriting of God. One out of three. What an astounding statistic…. Our opponents would have you believe that those of us who consider America too bloody religious are concerned mainly with legalistic issues involving the separation of church and state. In fact, our nation’s excessive religiosity affects individual lives and public policy in ways that are often matters of life and death….”
I guess could get a plug-in to run Real crap on my computer — inside QT. But, then, I sorted out this debate in my own head when I was 13 years old. Certainly sounds right on about American retrograde religion, though.
Are we too religious? I think not. I, an aforementioned atheist, believe that it’s a wonderful thing when someone can find meaning in something higher than themselves and use it as inspiration to do great things. In that sense, religion can be inspirational and comforting (even if I disagree with the basic tenet that deities exist and influence my life). For those who have deeply explored their beliefs and found their “truth,” I commend them.
However, I will agree with one thing: lawmakers have no business letting religion guide their every decision. Granted, lawmakers are people, too, and they’re often religious. They are elected to represent the people who elected them (often from areas where religious beliefs are highly concentrated such as South, in which I live), but they also have the moral imperative to stand up and go against the grain should the masses “have it all wrong.”
For example, should the masses in North Carolina (my state) decide that everyone should, by law, belong to a church, the lawmakers should decline, even risking their own chances at re-election. Let’s face it, the public does not always know best.
Is religion, in and of itself, bad? No.
Can religion be used badly? Absolutely.
There is something called real audio alternative which can be found at:
http://tinyurl.com/2f8gp
There’s also Quicktime player alternative, which allows you to play quicktime files without installing quicktime.
http://tinyurl.com/yws55
I don’t believe in God, therefore I feel I have the right to abuse the system any way I want to.
A very wise man (who just happened to be an Episcopal minister) once told me (and forty years of observation has consistently confirmed) that the folks who are the quickest and most vocal about their faith are not to be trusted. His actual words were, “Never turn your back on people like that.” Their actions are the ONLY reliable indicator of their character. I blame the concept of absolution. They are taught, and they believe, that they will be forgiven for whatever they do. My parents’ neighbor screwed people all week long, confessed once a week, then started the cycle again, week after week, basically all his life, convinced that he was a good religious person. History is full of examples of the damage that has been done in the name of religion. And it continues unabated.
I would agree that most people take their religions far too seriously and religion should never guide any legislation or legal questions. I would really like to know how they came up with the 33% figure for fundie literalists though. Seems awful high.
There are way too many fundamentalists in many religions. The ones in the US are mostly Protestants of the bible thumping variety, and are usually the ones that attempt to put religious thinking into public school texts, never mind the First Amendment.
Religious texts were all written by people, and are full of their personal views/prejudices. Those religious texts were in turn translated by other people, which in turn introduced their own views/prejudices into those texts.
There may be wisdom in religious texts, but typically there is a lot of evil in them as well. Inevitably it’s the kind of evil that justifies the killing of others because of disagreements about religion. Which brings us to the madness that pervades the Middle East.
If anything, Most of America doesn’t believe in God =\
… Well I do =)
Religiousness is an excellent indicator of one’s tendency to follow authority unquestioningly. When religious people are sufficiently convinced that a mandate comes from God himself, they will follow blindly, no matter how evil the actions would seem to a rational person.
To use an example from the much-followed Bible, when Moses ordered the Hebrews to stone a man to death for the trivial sin of breaking the Sabbath, did that order really come from God, or was Moses just a fascist leader asserting his authority over the people, with absolute power over life and death? Any rational person would have questioned such an order, but the irrationality of religion blinded the Hebrews into torturing one of their own to death because he performed work on the wrong day of the week.
Some day, we hope to have a cure for religion. As much as America needs that cure, there are other countries where the need for an antidote is even greater. Let’s hope we discover it in time.
@8: Yeah, that’s not really even close to true. Something like 85% + of American citizens believe in a ‘god’ of some form or another.
Politicians are the ones who empower religion in America. They use it because it gets them elected. The blowback is a nation divided by God-believers and atheists.
The desire for power by men has destroyed the great nation America used to be.
Without a doubt, it is. I can look forward to long suffering in severe pain if I die from a disease like cancer. I will die this way to satisfy some pompous son of a bitches imposed superstition on a general mass of ignoramuses without the good sense to realize the gods didn’t move off Olympus to some cloud in the sky. They never damn existed.
Sorry, but “a nation divided by God-believers and atheists” hardly seems to reflect the primary divisions in the U.S. As Dylan Neild pointed out, 85 percent of citizens say they believe in a god in some form or other. And as TheGlobalWarmer says, 33% of the population rated as fundies seems awfully high.
The really damaging divisions in the U.S. are ideological and economic, not religious. Even politicians who pander to Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell followers refer to them privately as religious nuts. Doesn’t stop them from pandering, of course, since it’s ridiculously easy to manipulate and excite such people in service to whatever agenda is actually in play.
How about “Is it acceptable to be bigoted against those our liberal leaders deem to be bigots?” Or “How far can we go with our bigotry against Christians?”
This Country was founded on the belief of “Free Will” and non-subjugation towards others based on what they believe.
Amendment 1 – Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
This says nothing of the President though. Just that no law shall be passed prohibiting it. And if any law were passed, for the people to petition against it.
Religious freedom should not be allowed to change this right, nor cause it to be removed.
What is funny, and I consider abit true.
In the USA, the Gov is for the people and ALL religions, and religion is for the individual.
Where religion should give us, our beliefs, and morals,
The Gov, has to rule over many with differing ideas and beliefs.
If religion has done its deed, then those we elect should have the morals of religion.
true in both..
religion SELDOM shows all the facts to be debated to Anyone it considers a Lay’ person.
Gov. has become as complicated, and only those IN the group have access to correcting it.
Both have become problems..
If we look at both, it has become Clear that the Privileged of the past, has Pressed their influence upon Both. They have made it so only the select can decern its meaning, and its cause. And those that weld it, in both cases, have their OWN plots and skemes… And None involved has any concern for those, as they consider, BELOW them.
The fundies just get a lot of attention because they are what Stalin called “useful fools.” They’re handy for a certain class of politicians, who have learned how to turn almost any debate into a fundie religious cause. And the fundies do like to make noise when they have a religious cause.
Just for a little perspective on the question of Christianity and the U.S. government, however, look to the sources:
“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
– George Washington, Treaty of Tripoli, 1796
“Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”
– Thomas Jefferson, February 10, 1814
Of course there have been spokesmen for the religious side of the political fence as well, both in and out of the U.S.:
“The national government will maintain and defend the foundations on which the power of our nation rests. It will offer strong protection to Christianity as the very basis of our collective morality. Today Christians stand at the head of our country. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit. We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theatre, and in the press — in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of LIBERAL excess during the past years.”
— Adolph Hitler; Taken from The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1, Michael Hakeem, Ph.D. (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pp. 871-872.
OK I have just read the summary and did not listen to the whole debate, but here is my summary of the summary: PRO = Fundamentalism is ruining this country, CON = Not all religious people are fundamentalists.
I agree with both sides.
Maybe it is about time that the reasonable 75% of us take the country back from the wacky 25%.
I love the comment made by Barry Lynn: “What is a damned religion? Damned religion is a religion so weak-willed and unsure of its own capacity to persuade others to support it or live by its guidance that it seeks the blessing of government. That it seeks financial aid from government. And that it even tries to convert its theological beliefs into legislative fiats. This damned form of religion is a corruption both of faith and of constitutional democracy. And it makes a mockery of the best in our history….”
The problem isn’t that the country’s too damn religious, it’s that it’s too damn sanctimonious.
I always like to point out that the Roman Empire at the height of its decadence was the most powerful force in the world and running roughshod over whatever it chose. The Roman Empire only fell after it became Christianized and highly moralistic, which coincided with (or, by some interpretations, generated) a rigid social stratification that left the culture inflexible and incapable of dealing with changing conditions. Historically, moral rigidity is not conducive to survival. But I guess that’s not important when you’ve got the next life to look forward to.
The older I get, the more I’m convinced that people can’t chose if they believe in god(s), or not.
Either you perceive spiritual “reality” (or, alternatively, “delusion”) or you don’t.
However, how you channel this perception can be changed (what religion, what sect, self-invented, etc.)
The Soviet Union is an interesting case study in this. They brutally — on a mass scale without mercy — tried to remove religion from society but the best they could do was reduce organized religion.
But then, unsurprisingly, free-form spirituality broke out in the form of widespread belief in UFOs, ESP and other supernatural phenomenon.
So, Russia had a high percentage of people who claimed to be atheists and “non religious” but who believed in little green men from outer space! This doesn’t seem like much of a social advancement to me.
God gave me a brain, and freedom to question everything, including Him (or Her, or Whatever). I am a believer, however, I am in no way a Christian. The unworthy thought occasionally intrudes that perhaps the Romans had the right idea concerning the Christians, the lions, etc…
#22, Belief in a Creator;
I can’t answer for you, but I know that I, and my brothers and sisters, was created when my father’s sperm impregnated my mother’s egg. They are my creators. But, if you were born in a pumpkin patch, or the stork dropped you off one day, or …
Belief in God being the Lawgiver
Hhmmm, is this the same guy credited with wanton killing of people throughout history? Mass genocides, assaults, sadistic tortures, etc and he even killed his own son? Yup, a whole lot of experience there.
Belief that God is the Judge
See the previous line for the claim to be a good judge.
Belief that God is the Provider
So who is your god providing for? Haliburton, Lockheed-Martin, Exxon, Bechel, …
Eighth and Tenth Commandment
Where are the “Ten Commandments” in the Bible?
Amendment 5 & 14
Yup, we depend upon god there.
Article I, Section 10, Paragraph (1)
I SEE IT !!! GOD’S HAND !!!, oopps, nope, just a dirty monitor screen.
Fourth Commandment
Where is that list of commandments again?
Article I, Section 7, Paragraph (2)
So the President isn’t required to work Sundays. 225 years ago, very few people were required to work Sundays. Slaves, farmers, and women excepted. Even today, most contracts and laws exempt weekends by declaring “Business Days” in the contracts. BTW, weekends include Saturdays.
Your little perspective:
So Washington was an Episcopalian. Big deal, most of the early politicians went to church.
Blah, blah, blah.
So several people mentioned “god” or religion or whatever. You still miss the intent that they put into the 1st Amendment, The Government will not get into religion !!! The citizens of this country are free to worship as they see fit, provided that worship does not injure others.
Since I have not heard or don’t remember most of your quotes, I wonder how many of them have been taken out of context or just invented. You know, like that line where President Lincoln apparently suggested Congressmen who oppose the President during war should be charged with treason. Never was said, much like I think of most of your quotes. But hey, whichever religious nut-job site you took them from didn’t care about the truth either.
Darn I hate making my posts too long. Sorry.