John just posted, yesterday, about Muslim clerics in Pakistan declaring that polio vaccination is an American plot. Apparently, religious fanatics have proceeded with their murderous resistance to modern medicine.
The real victims of fanaticism
A senior health official has been killed and three guards injured in a bomb blast in Pakistan’s tribal region bordering Afghanistan, officials say.
The dead man, Abdul Ghani Khan, played a key role in a polio immunisation drive in the Bajaur tribal region. Dr Khan was returning from a meeting of tribal elders to persuade them to end their opposition to the campaign.
No one has admitted to carrying out the blast. Officials said the assailants used a remote-controlled bomb.
The government is facing resistance from some tribes in its campaign to vaccinate children against polio. Some tribal leaders say the vaccine is a part of a US conspiracy to reduce fertility and reproduction rates.
These nutcases should worry less about fertility and more about the health of their kids.
Sad–but they’re apparently hell-bent on Darwining themselves and their children based on the advice of apparently ignorant or malevolent clerics. Maybe it’s a plot to reduce the overall population in Pakistan.
MOVe out for 20 years…
Make sure EVERYONE knows why…
then DONT come back until 1/2 their nation is crippled or dead.
I feel sorry for the kids, but I agree with Pedro (#2)… Leave them alone. After all…
When you plan for eternity, a few years of Earthbound suffering doesn’t mean anything. That was the Catholic church approach for centuries, and to an extent still is. Many of you fail to appreciate this logic of the faithful.
You are all jokers. Must be it. Cos’ I would never believe that people can really think like that. I’m not a Do Gooder by any standards, but I still think that you can never win misinformation and ignorance with apartheid and alienation. That sorry excuse of “just leve them to rot, since they don’t want our truth.” is so pathetically paternalistic, yet so immature.
The case is simple. If you let them to rot like you say it will become another part of the world, ignorant and at the mercy of any warlord or religious fanatic. It takes time to change minds and to evidence become self apparent. But it’s the path we must take to better ourselves.
These nutcases should worry less about fertility and more about the health of their kids.
Unfortunately, the nutcases can’t / won’t see the harm they do to others. Be it Jehovah Witness refusing blood transfusions, Christian Evangelists and their birth control, or the Muslim clerics who are the focus of this story, they are all so self centered they can’t see the actual harm they do.
Fairy tales and superstition kill or harm more people every year then imaginable. #5, RT is right when it comes to motives. But it isn’t the religion, it’s the power grab by the religious “leaders”.
#6 – What kind of glasses are you wearing today?
It’s a good probability that you are all caring good people. Some of you are commenting with gut reactions and emotions, and others have visited this topic in it’s various recurrences so often that you’ve developed a more refined and intellectual response to the backwardness that exists in the (comparatively) medieval cultures that we coexist with on this ball of carbon-based inhabitants.
I would bet that if a panel consisting of everyone posting here were to be given first hand experience and valid information of this situation in all it’s complexities, and given the task of implementing a plan of action, that you would all come to a consensus and do the right thing… whatever that thing turns out to be. I would further bet that your decision would be better that any politician or government as it would most likely be grounded in compassion, common sense, and realism as opposed to personal agendas, corruption, and self preservation.
lol – no let them worry about fertility – that way, when they’re able to breed like rabbits, they’ll die like rabbits too! (aka excessive infant mortality offsets explosive birth rate)
My glasses today are blurry… but still one thing comes through sharply:
To help erradicate diseases is a Good Thing. (period) Blood transfusions save lives. Birth control save lives too.
And to look at it from the angle of any religion that has some agenda on the subject is not (a good thing).
I’m not religious, but nonetheless I respect the faith of others. But this is not faith. Unfortunately power can be achieved exploiting the system of beliefs of people. If some clerical hieararchy wants to control their flock, by keeping them in a ignorant state, it’s not the people’s fault. To deprive people from access to medical aid that can prevent death, it’s criminal. And you can reason around that all you want, but in the end when someone dies from something that could be prevented, we’re all at loss as a specie. I don’t put a value on human life. A pakiststani kid dead is as tragical as an american one. No more, no less.
We westerners have this notion of having a somewhat more enlightened view on these matters, but we fail to act accordingly. This case is symptomatic: what is the main thing here? Is it erradicating Polio or to appear as a savior? This has to be tackled from the top down at the same time that is from the bottom up. The Pakistan government must be pressured to put order on their internal struggles for the greater good and at the same time there must be some more efforts to reach through to the populations. Just because the road is a difficult one or that there are forces blocking the way, it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done.
I don’t buy that notion of not being able to help those who don’t seek help. It just takes longer, and it’s harder.
I’m just saying this because in the end we all pick up the tab. I mean, we all share this tiny little spec of cosmic dirt we call Earth. And, for the time being, we’re going nowhere. So the bad (poverty, ignorance, lack of health…) that goes around has the the nasty habit of bitting us back in the rear end. You might not see it now, but it will.
JoaoPT: that is an end, not a means.
The problem I have comes from 1 problem..
the Literacy level in the middel east is the worst of any nation.
1. education for women…NOT.
2. education for anyone besides Clerics, NOT..
3. education for anyone besides the RICH, NOT..
I asked a religous group that come to my door.
do you teach in the middle east?
Yes we do.
I asked about the education levels and they said they taught that also.
then I asked,
Why not teach them Their OWN religion?
They looked confused and went away.
Its those Fun loving religious Zealots that TELL others what their religion SAYS…and there is NO standard for TRUTH or understanding of there OWN beliefs…Same with Christians/catholics/presbiterians(sp)/ Lutherans/ and ALL the western religions.. We just dont run around killing each other.
Pedro. That’s an excuse. That is at the very fulcrum of the matter. If you stop trying because whatever you do will perpetuate the rift between east and west, they win. Simple. Us and them will drift further and further apart. We must do our effort to reach even if there is no similar response at the other end. We must find some common ground. The world is not simple and me and you don’t have all the answers.
You know, some scientists speculate that, as the human kind has very little genetic diversity, in some point in our history we were reduced to a very small group. They say, after investigation of mithocondrial DNA, that passes from mother to daughter, with no male DNA mixing, that we really are sons of only a handful of mothers. We are all brothers, not only in the metaphorical sense, but also the genetic sense. I refuse to believe that there are fundamental differences between us that prevents us to find some common human values. I refuse to think that what we hold true and sane is not, at it’s fundamental level, the same everywhere.
And to see another fellow human being die it’s not one. Or else I’m terribly wrong, and really there’s no hope. At all.
#16 – the “fundamental difference” between US and THEM is going to be religion (something which is created by society, not dna)
I should ADD to my post on 15…
we dont run around killing each other in western religion, ANYMORE…
which dont say much for 200-300-400 years ago…
#17 Yes but societies are created among those who share the same values. Historically are those of the same tribe, etnical group, culture or language. Religion is also a factor, but it is originated in cultural values and can spawn among other groups. Religion is therefore a way to bridge some common values, even if historically sometimes was not “shared” values but “transmitted” values. Usually are cosmogonies, ie. explanations of the world around you, either visible or unvisible (unknown). And these can vary, but almost all monotheistic religions rely on the same principles.
My point is, that right there you have matter to find common ground.
Of course this is a declaration of principle. It’s like stating the guidelines to orient us. I’m trying to express the feeling that there must be something that can be done to bring the human values of life preservation. It is a response to some that say that help is hopeless.
Nothing more.
19,
and for SOME odd reason…
what some call Jews, Born, converted, or in ancestry…are ALWAYS jews…
why is that??
STUPID 15 second rule ISNT working correctly…
Joao,
Very good arguments. You put it very well and I agree.
One issue that many fail to address is that “the West”, including the United States have engaged in sterilization programs in both third world countries and within our own territories. So we are partially to blame for this situation because we have engaged in these activities in the past which they think we still do now. Now the majority of blame goes to those that start this nonsense within their culture but within most lies are grains of truth.
i still suggest, walking OUT and making SURE the populace knows WHY…
23,
Yes the US gov, and SOME private groups have/had Gone into the middle east and tried some VERY strange things…I wouldnt put it past the White Europeon decendants…
Its always been that bad… Am. indians and Small pox blankets, ect…
#2 I say leave them alone. They deserve that.
#3 >> DONT come back until 1/2 their nation is crippled or dead.
As (probably) the only person on this board who been to that place and knows those people, I have a hard time taking any scheudenfreude from this.
It reminds me of the scheudenfreude many Muslims took on 911. They didn’t approve of 911 (and of course, played no role in it) yet there was this deep sadistic satisfaction that America finally got some of their own medicine.
I am convinced this kind of group-think is the root of most large-scale evil in the world.
Religion isn’t directly the problem but it can certainly encourage group-think. Racism and nationalism can play an equal or greater role, depending on the culture.
#23 Pedro.
I made my points and I’m resting this issue.
Just a clarification:
Heck we share gene pool to bacteria also… that’s not it.
I mean that our gene pool in our species has even less diversity than other species like, say, dogs or whales. We are genetically very close to each other.
This was just brought up to underline the notion that if we are so alike why is there so much controversy?. Why is it so difficult to put minds toghether?
Just that!
PS. you can’t really “teach” a species how to evolve… but you know that don’t you?
Pedro — maybe I was reading scheudenfreude into these guy’s comments but I don’t think so.
It’s not as simple as blaming religion. And it is incredibly misguided to blame kids who get polio.
I think it hard for Americans to understand how poorly educated those people are — even the mullahs. I’ve spoken with a few mullahs in rural Pakistan and plenty of average people. Most have absolutely no idea about how disease works, let alone any concept of microbes or contaigen.
Much more common is belief in ill-winds and the wrong mixture of “hot” vs “cold” foods (it’s categorical, not temperature). They also believe in Jin curses. They have been taught this for centuries, I assume, and have been told it comes from the Koran. (which they can’t read.)
So, when a bunch of Christian (as they view all westerners) come around giving out mystery drops, it’s no surprise rumors start to fly.
I talked at length to one of our missionary doctors administering a vitamin A program in that general region, which was ended because of a rumor campaign making it dangerous for him.
Yes, he blamed the mullahs. But he also blamed America and Russia for keeping that region isolated and undeveloped for a decade because of their proxy war. He also blamed the Taliban and the Pakistani governments for not investing in the region after that war was over.
At least someone has some light on the subject.
Thanks Greg.
Second JaoPT’s thanks. Good info – thanks, Greg.
How’s that saying go – we reap what we sow? In this case, we’re reaping distrust, a situation made worse by opportunistic and/or fanatical clerics. It’s mainly the children who will reap the polio, but never underestimate the ability of clerics in any religion to deflect blame and rationalize outcomes. As the Catholic inquisitor said, it may hurt now but you have all eternity ahead; someday you’ll thank me for this.
Reaping what we sow, and the children suffer. I bet there’s a sound bite about that somewhere in the Bible.
Iv posted many times in this quorm…
Forget bring religion to this area, Bring EDUCATION…
Bring Learning…Bring Farming…
It will advance their nation, there people, their education, and Their LAND away from OIL, and the mullah…Let them READ and learn, of their PAST, and their Wars…