This underlines the reason we have a Constitution and are a nation of laws. Or does it matter?
Rep.-elect Keith Ellison, the first Muslim elected to Congress, found himself under attack last month when he announced he’d take his oath of office on the Koran — especially from Virginia Rep. Virgil Goode, who called it a threat to American values.
Yet the holy book at tomorrow’s ceremony has an unassailably all-American provenance. We’ve learned that the new congressman — in a savvy bit of political symbolism — will hold the personal copy once owned by Thomas Jefferson.
IMNSHO, it doesn’t matter what book is in your hand when you swear into office, but what convictions are in your heart. There’s no end to those who shame their faith, from Jews to Christians to Muslims to Buddists to Agnostics. What about those lawmakers who have been proven a liar after swearing on the Bible? Did the book make a difference?
That’s without even dealing with the fact that to prevent Ellison from using the Koran would be unconstitutional.
#29, #30
I think that only relates to religion, right SN?
@ #19
There is a law that prevents atheists from holding office in TN. You can’t even work for the government in any capacity if you are an atheist. Pretty fucked up huh?
http://www.tncrimlaw.com/law/constit/IX.html#2
#19 I would contend that what you describe is an aspect of the freedom of religion. A freedom from religion would imply (at least to me) that you have a right to be free from the religious practices of others. Unless you choose to isolate yourself from others, there is no practical way you can be free from their religion without taking away their freedom.
It’s like the what I said earlier — you have freedom of speech, but you cannot have a freedom from speech while others are free to speak; unless of course you remove yourself as I said.
#32, if that is correct, it seems to me that the 14th Amendment would invalidate it since the Constitution clearly states there shall be no religious tests to hold public federal office.
#32
More stupid laws from Tennessee. Sounds like a great place to live. 😉
#25 SN
it is really hurt me when some of you think that we are an animal and just kill any body who disagree with us.
God says in Koran “Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice”
for more about Koran
http://www.islamtoday.net/english/discover_islam.cfm?cat_id=6&sub_cat_id=41
FYI: the bible/koran is not used during the official swearing in, its used in the photo op afterwards
third paragraph of this article explains it well,
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/11/30/koran-bible-prager-ellison/
and another interesting read
36,
Don’t bother trying to change people’s opinions. You would have better luck stopping time. People come to conclusions based on their environment, upbringing and experience. Beliefs only change when one or all three of them have shifted. And remember, Islam is represented as accurately and broadly as blacks are on TV in Hollywood… or Chinese, or Indians, or Latino’s
And SN, since you don’t believe me, don’t debate me. 🙂
#35: Here’s some from Indiana, whee I grew up. The last two are still enforced.
Men are prohibited from standing in a bar.
You are not allowed to carry a cocktail from the bar to a table. The waiter or waitress has to do it. This one is definitely enforced–don’t ask my why.
Drinks on the house are illegal.
(this bans happy hours too).
#4 Actually, I always thought that Agnostics had a faith, if only in their inability to define God. But, perhaps, to be so humble is better than to have such faith in oneself that one thinks that they can constrain the infinite, or define the undefinable.
#11 What fairy tales are you talking about? If our congressmen would listen to Aesop and his tale of the ant and the grasshopper, they wouldn’t be such spendthrifts. If they would listen to Jesus, and his tale of the barren fig tree, they would try to do some good in the world. If they would listen to the people of Africa, and the tales of Anansi, they would not try to keep all of the worlds wisdom secret, as if hiding it in a gourd. Hell, if they listened to Little Red Riding Hood, at least they would learn not to tell secrets to unsavory characters! The only God I don’t want in Congress is Mammon, take your prejudice elsewhere.
#18 Well put.
#32 Pretty much.
#36 Why don’t we let the animals fight it out? I would rather live with a real human being like you as my neighbor.
“I would contend that what you describe is an aspect of the freedom of religion. A freedom from religion would imply (at least to me) that you have a right to be free from the religious practices of others. Unless you choose to isolate yourself from others, there is no practical way you can be free from their religion without taking away their freedom.
It’s like the what I said earlier — you have freedom of speech, but you cannot have a freedom from speech while others are free to speak; unless of course you remove yourself as I said. ”
One’s speech or religion cannot infringe upon the rights of others. Freedom of speech is not unconditional. You are free to speak your mind and practice whatever religion you want. But you run into a conflict when you have verbal harassment or unwelcome proselytizing. If I want people who are Jehovah’s Witnesses to stop knocking at my door, I have that right. Likewise a person can yell verses from the Bible in front of my home and think it is his/her freedom of speech, but to me it is harassment.
In the context of Mr. Ellison, it would be a matter of whether or not there is a religious test before he is allowed to assume office. In that instance he has the free choice to be of a religion of his choice or none at all.
It’s apparent those of the religious right in this country firmly believe in the premise of ‘freedom of religion’, as long as that religion is THEIR religion you choose.
The very fact that this is a story at all speaks volumes about the intolerance that these people show, when their religion preaches to them to be tolerant.
Ahh the hypocrisy of the religious right knows no bounds – such as saying ‘every life is precious!’ when clamoring against abortion, yet being firmly in support of the death penalty for those they deem unworthy to live.
It must suck to have to live in a world that filled with contradictions.
I’m from MN and am well aware of Ellison. He has plenty of issues, chief among them a known association (which he denies) with Louis Farrakhan. Putting that aside, his “holy” book is the Koran. It makes a lot more sense for him to swear on that than the Bible – if you’re going to swear on a book at all.
I actually agree with Mr. Fusion. Instead of swearing on a holy book, how about swearing on the Constitution? Going even further, how about they keep their oaths after making them?
24 I invite you to visit Saudi Arabia and you will see how welcome we are
You can invite him to Saudi Arabia, but can you take him to Mecca while he’s there…?
🙂
#44 Try to get in the Vatican libraries to do some research, and see how far you get. Of course, I would argue that both of these restrictions are counterproductive, but Islam is hardly the only religion that denies entrance to some inner sanctum to outsiders. If we are to survive, we are going to have to stop judging others for their quirks, and start loving them for who they are. Just because this has to be mutual to work doesn’t mean it isn’t worth practicing.
Replace oaths with signed job descriptions and hold them to it.
“I, Loyal Citizen of the Republic, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”
If we just held them to the oaths they have already taken, how many would still be in office?
Everyone in the world needs to read “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins. It will save us thousands of years of war and get us ready for whatever age comes after the digital age. Unfortunately, the people who really need to read the book prolly won’t.
I could care less what this guy swears on. I was under the impression Ellison is a member of the Nation of Islam, which does not have much in common with traditional Islam. Is that true?
#49, I don’t know. Does it matter what his religion is?
50. Did I say it did? Or were you just trolling again Fusion?
The Nation of Islam is a hate group according to the Southern Poverty Law Center and that is not the type of person we need in Congress. That is why I asked.
When Representative-elect Keith Ellison responded to Wolf Blitzer’s question (on CNN) concerning Representative Virgil Goode’s negative comments, with the statement, “I think he has a lot to learn about Islam!” … I, too, realized I needed to
Learn more about Islam:
It was Prophet Muhammad who said, “Whoever sees an abomination must straighten it with his hands.” Saddam Hussein repeated and relied upon this saying in his attack on Kuwait’s ruling family. The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt depended upon this saying when they killed Anwar El Sadat. We must never imagine that such Muslims are being unnecessarily wicked …They are simply being faithful to their religion!
From the President, to most religious leaders, to the average talk radio program, we are being told that Islam is a peaceful religion. It is said that bin Laden and the Taliban only represent an extremely radical Muslim fringe, which is not representative of true Islam.
THIS IS NOT TRUE!
First of all, “Islam” means submission, not peace. The Arabic word, “islâm” is submission; from; “aslama”- to surrender, resign oneself; from the Syriac, “aðlem” – to surrender; from the stem “ðlem”- to be complete.
This does not imply voluntary submission but includes a forced submission where the subjects will not comply. Historically Islam is not known for its peace movements, but for a uniquely Arab word, “jihad,” which means an offensive war intended to lead to the conversion of the infidel to Islam, or to his annihilation!
Islam in the Arabic language and in the Qa’ran/Koran means total submission and obedience. However, the original meaning of “Islam” in the Arabic language is the acceptance of a view or a condition which was not previously accepted, that is the readiness of a person to take orders from god and to follow them. “Muslim” is a word taken from the word Islam, and applies to that person, who is ready to take orders from god and follow him without question.
“Do they seek a deen other than the deen of Allah and to him all what is in the skies and in the earth have submitted willingly or forcefully and to Him they shall return. [Qur’an 3:83]”
The word “Islam” was used in the Qur’an as a symbol for the word “deen,” revealed by the Prophet Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad stated that his teachings contain the teachings of all the previous prophets, and all divine commandments. When a person professes the belief in the truthfulness of Prophet Muhammad, and pledges to follow his message, he, in fact, stating his readiness to obey the orders of god unconditionally.
From the Koran/Qur’an (“An English Interpretation of the Holy Quran with Full Arabic Text,” A. Yusuf Ali), “The deen [religion] before Allah is Islam. [Qur’an 3:19]. Whosoever seeks, other than Islam, a deen, it will not be accepted from him and he, in the Hereafter, is among the losers. [Qur’an 3:85].”
The concept of “deen” involves four principles: 1) Subjugation, authority, and ruling; 2) Obedience and submission due to subjugation; 3) The method and the habit; and 4) Punishment, reward and judgment. Therefore, “deen” implies a comprehensive system of life that is composed of four parts: 1) The ruler ship and the authority belong to Allah only; 2) The obedience and submission are to Allah; 3) The comprehensive system (intellectual and practical) is established by this authority; and 4) The reward given by this authority (Allah) to those who followed the system and submitted to him and the punishment inflicted upon those who rebel against it and disobey it. Prophet Muhammad said: “Every human being is born in a state of pure nature; but through the influence of his parents, he may become non-Muslim.” Islam is a “divine” system, and with it Allah sealed all other religions, and made it a comprehensive system dealing with all aspects of human life (belief, intellectual, moral, and practical). This system is based on total submission to Allah alone, purifying worship to him only, and following the traditions (sunnah) of Prophet Muhammad.
Therefore, when you hear people saying that Islam is a peaceful religion, know rather, that Islam is fighting a holy war for control of the world! That war was begun by Prophet Mohammed himself in the seventh century, and is still being carried on today by his followers through terrorism. These terrorists are not radicals or extremists, as the media continually labels them. Rather, these are Islamic fundamentalists who are true to their religion and the teachings of the Qu’ran, and who are following faithfully in the footsteps of the Prophet, Mohammed.
As Abd El Schafi has said in his book (Behind The Veil: Unmasking Islam), “We must never imagine that such Muslims are being unnecessarily wicked. They are simply being faithful to their religion. The fact is never hidden as to what the proper attitude a good Muslim should have towards Christians and Jews. In fact, much of the incitement to violence and war in the whole of the Qu’ran is directed specifically against Jews/Christians who rejected what they felt to be the strange “god” that Prophet Mohammed was trying to preach. Prophet Muhammad and his successors initiated offensive wars against peaceful countries in order to impose Islam by force as well as to seize the abundance of these lands.” So, Islam was imposed upon Syria, Jordan, Palestine (Jerusalem), Egypt, Libya, Iraq, Iran, all of North Africa, some parts of India and China, and later Spain. So, it appears the “radical” fundamentalists are closer to historic Islam than those who profess to be followers of so-called “mainstream” version. Islam has always been, and continues to be a religion (a way of life) spread by force, not through peaceful means or persuasion.
Islam was planted by Prophet Muhammad with the sword, not a philosophy or ethic of peace. It’s rather astonishing to learn just how cruel and brutal Prophet Muhammad was as he tortured his captives with fire, then killed them and took their wives as bond maids for himself, as well as for his companions. Following his death, these brothers-in-arms then fought each other in relentless, savage wars; competing for authority and out of deeply rooted hatred, Prophet Muhammad’s relatives and closest friends sacrificed and slaughtered each other!
No wonder we see Moslems, these days, fighting with each other. In fact, these wars and hostilities spring from the very heart of the Islamic teachings, since it calls for the use of force to combat “wrongdoing,” … just as Prophet Muhammad’s relatives did with one another! It was Muhammad who said, “Whoever sees an abomination must straighten it with his hands.” Thus, Saddam Hussein repeated and relied upon this saying of Muhammad in his attack on Kuwait’s ruling family; and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt depended upon this saying when they killed Anwar El Sadat (a real man of peace).
Therefore, when you hear people saying that Islam is a peaceful religion, know rather that Islam is fighting a holy war for control of the world! That is, the concept of an offensive war, to spread the faith, is a genuine Islamic concept; known as a Holy War for the sake of god. This, not peace, is the essence of Islam! That is, if there were sufficient military power available to Islamic countries, they would attack all other countries in order to force them to embrace Islam. The Qu’ran is the authoritative scripture for the Muslim, and here are a few quotes advocating this militancy toward the non-Muslim:
#1) But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them. And seize them, beleaguer them. Lie in wait for the in every stratagem of war; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Surah 9:5)
#2) Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, even if they are of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with will submission, and feel themselves subdued. (Surah 9:29)
#3) Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive and struggle with your goods and your persons, in the Cause of Allah. (Surah 9:41)
#4) The infidel is to be “killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land, and in the hereafter theirs will be an awful doom. (Surah 5:33)
#5) Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth no aggressors. And slay them wherever you find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful. (Surah 2:190-92)
#6) Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah. ( Surah 2:29, 41)
#7) Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who reject the faith do battle for the cause of evil. So fight ye against the friends of Satan. (Surah 4:76)
Prophet Muhammad founded Islam with the sword; his followers maintained Islamic rule with the sword; subsequent generations have always spread Islam’s oppressive rule beyond the Arabian Peninsula with the sword. One cannot be a true follower of Islam without holding to the tenants of the Qu’ran, which also advocates forced submission to its rule. How can anyone who knows anything about Islam deny this? Why are so many, today, inclined to believe that Islam is a peaceful religion and not a militant movement, which desires to conquer the world through Jihad?
Obviously there are political motives behind the President and his administration that have given rise to their many statements that Islam is a peaceful religion. Yet such is simply not the case. If Islamic terrorism is ever going to be defeated, people are going to have to face the fact that it is driven by a historic Muslim belief in “Holy War” as a means of spreading their religion.
So then, now (today 1/5/07) that we finally have a Muslim (see definition above) in our House (of Representatives) … My CNN question, would be, “Representative Ellison, as a Muslim and ‘deemed’ follower and ‘true believer’ of the Qu’ran … Representative Ellison, to WHICH are you really true – #1 Your elected position, as the American people’s Representative (be they Muslim or NOT), or #2 to your religion’s more demanding and unrelenting requirements? … You, of course, can’t be both; so which is it, really?”
And he would answer … in the popular and politically correct way, that, ”I was just being bigoted for having even thought to ask him such a question!” … So be it, but at least, I was thinking!
It’s a hard,
hard rain that’s gonna fall,
Robin