Student and teacher
Talk in Class Turns to God, Setting Off Public Debate on Rights
Before David Paszkiewicz got to teach his accelerated 11th-grade history class about the United States Constitution this fall, he was accused of violating it.
Shortly after school began in September, the teacher told his sixth-period students at Kearny High School that evolution and the Big Bang were not scientific, that dinosaurs were aboard Noah’s ark, and that only Christians had a place in heaven, according to audio recordings made by a student whose family is now considering a lawsuit claiming Mr. Paszkiewicz broke the church-state boundary.
“If you reject his gift of salvation, then you know where you belong,” Mr. Paszkiewicz was recorded saying of Jesus. “He did everything in his power to make sure that you could go to heaven, so much so that he took your sins on his own body, suffered your pains for you, and he’s saying, ‘Please, accept me, believe.’ If you reject that, you belong in hell.”
The student, Matthew LaClair, said that he felt uncomfortable with Mr. Paszkiewicz’s statements in the first week, and taped eight classes starting Sept. 13 out of fear that officials would not believe the teacher had made the comments.
In a Sept. 25 letter to the principal, Matthew wrote: “I care about the future generation and I do not want Mr. Paszkiewicz to continue preaching to and poisoning students.”
@62
The values you speak of are available to you without religion. Religion doesn’t solve problems it creates them. The bible is full of lies and hate. Don’t push it on others.
#1 – Way to go kid. Stick it to THE MAN!
My thought as well. This kid got balls.
everyone knows that dinosaurs were on Noah’s Ark, along with Fred, Wilma, Barney and Betty. Yahweh Dabba Doo!
I went through the public school system in Canada, and I found listening to this teacher speak rather shocking. The most shocking thing is that people actually support this guy for preaching in a history class! That kind of abuse of power would never stand here. Religion belongs in the church, mosque, or special private schools for parents who want their children to grow up as ignorant as they are.
The right-wing religious nutjobs in this country feel it’s ok for dopes like this teacher to try and force their religious ideals on their students – despite a strict and well-written policy of seperating their preaching of mythology and fairy tales to their students.
If you want your kids to learn these tales of magic, then pony up the money and send them to a private, religious school. Keep it out of the publicly funded school sector. Got it?
I listened to the audio from the NYT and wasn’t impressed by what I heard…..mainly because it was obviously cherry picked bits of the tapes.
The Dawkins audio is much more complete(but still not in context) and based on that, I would say he was primarily answering questions put to him by the students. How the whole topic got started is never clear, since the tapes are obviously not complete(by accident, editing or on purpose). He seems to use himself and how he percieves things from modern teaching methods to science to answer their questions. I did hear what could be considered **preaching** if you really want to be tight about it…..but could also be **teaching**, since he offers historical context to many things he says. At several points he points out that when they get to a further section of the class, he will be able to explain some of the things some of the students were asking him, and that would make why we do certain things one way or the other.
I feel that he should offer an apology to anyone he may have confused or offended and then let it go. Strictly teach history without context, since thats how it’s done in most American schools anyway. Horror’s if someone might get offended to hear real history.
I still find it interesting that if this is his habit, why no one has complained before. And why the Muslim girl that he was accused of telling to go to hell hasn’t complained.
I’m finally getting a picture of who the kid is…..a smart ass, who knows just enough(like most teenagers) to make himself stand out. The Pledge of Allegence incident shows that it’s only about being in the papers.
Maybe if more New Jersyites paid attention to moral issues, they wouldn’t have half the political system in jail at any given time.
Once again I have to bring this up. If this goes to court, then any money spent is money that won’t make it into the classroom. There are enough court decisions already to make the winner a foregone conclusion and in cases like these, it is usually the loser that pays.
The student, and his father, have a legitimate complaint. They have a right to see that action has been taken and to know what that action is. The student is still in that class and will have his papers and tests graded by the same teacher. Unless there is obvious action from the school then the student has a reasonable fear that he will be discriminated against because of his religious views.
If this happened in my community, I can see the same amount of support for the teacher. This has less to do with the correctness of the teacher and more to do with the strength of the churches around here. They get indoctrinated early and too often keep it.
From the article: “Bloggers around the world have called Matthew courageous. In contrast, the LaClairs said they had been surprised by the vehemence of the opposition that local residents had expressed against Matthew.”
#66 I agree with you – David did the right thing in reporting this teacher, and the way he is being hung out to dry by his own neighbors – schoolmates and adult members of the community – is the REAL sin being committed here.
And yet, unfortunately, it’s also not that surprising. If you listen to the audio, the way the students are just “uhhuh” ing and “yup”ing to everything this idiot is saying, the sad story tells itself. This is a community that has been insular and content in it’s ignorance for a loong time. In fact, I’d say that environment is the only one that would’ve fostered the idea in any public school teacher’s head, to ever think they could get a way with something like this. When I was a kid, when the worst thing we had to face was ‘the New Math’, students would have been the first to be all over this guy. Most of us had long since learned to think critically, value science, and more importantly realize the value of the separation of church and state.
But I was in high school a long time ago. The fact is, religious influence has ruined the public school system today, and spineless school boards and teachers unions have let it happen. Whether it be in science, history, or basic civics and/or (non-religion based) ethics … the moral absolutists of the US, in their quest to squelch logical arguments and explanations that contradict their faith doctrines, have created a society of idiots. And the rest of the world is quickly waking up to that fact as we speak, and licking their chops. We’ll eventually fall due to our ignorance, and when we do the Europeans and Asians who haven’t taken their eyes off the ball will quickly pick up the pieces.
Get ready you Holy Rollers. You may eventually obtain your goal of taking the US for your own, but it will be a carcass of a country by then – killed by your own hands.
#68 joshua
Can you explain what “historical context” he has for discussing the validity of evolution or the scientific process in a history class?
Did you notice the range of religious discussion in one day during a history class. The Scriptures, Prophecies, Evolution, Salvation. Are you fucking kidding me? Is that really the position you want to take on this?
#62 Highhawker, I was raised in a Roman Catholic household. I have 4 sisters, two of which are still practicing devout Christians.
Ontario has 2 school systems, Catholic and Public. Both are funded by taxes so that Catholic household taxes are diverted to the Catholic board and public taxes to the public board. I started my 3 children in Catholic School (played my catholic card as you have to be a registered catholic) because they are better funded, the schools and equipment are newer and I was hoping that with all the claims of a higher morality, my young children would have a safe, pleasant, well supported education.
The religion part didn’t bother me then. I figured that my children would get a balanced education in that area if I encouraged them to research religious history and viability outside the Bible as they grew older.
What a mistake I made. To say the least I was appalled at the low level of moral and ethical fiber exhibited by Catholic children AND the Catholic school board. My children are half Chinese and they experienced devastating racism and bullying on a daily basis. When I switched them (and my tax money) to Public school the difference was dramatic. No racism, no bullying, and better friends. The oldest are now seniors in High School and have never been treated badly there.
As an aside, one of the bible thumping and very pregnant teachers was caught by a night janitor screwing a grade 8 student in the teacher’s lounge.
If my recollection of high school means anything, its not that this kid recorded his teacher. It is that he was the first one to do it. I expect many more thousands of these over the next couple of years. They will make their way to the public through the bloggosphere. It may be the end of these types of rogue teachers.
Bravo kid!
dinosaurs on the ark , Hahahahaha How can these people not hear how idiotic they sound. Must a been a DAMN big ark hehehe.
#73 Stiffler says “The values which have preserved our country and elevated us are those of the Judeo-Christian faiths.”
The brutality and sheer inhumanity shown by the Hebrew God in the Bible certainly haven’t “elevated” our human rights principles the way you suggest when you compare our country to those with repressive regimes. As a matter of fact, current western norms for these values greatly surpass those displayed in most of the Bible.
Read again how the demon you worship commanded that a man be tortured to death by stoning for the trivial sin of working on the Sabbath. Moses pronounced that death sentence, but according to your own Bible, he got it directly from the “Big Guy” upstairs. Do you worship the demon Yahweh out of admiration or just bone-chilling fear, knowing that at some time you’ve performed work on the Sabbath, and your God’s first inclination is to torture you to death?
Indeed, julieb had it exactly right.
>>The brutality and sheer inhumanity shown by the Hebrew God in the Bible certainly haven’t “elevated” our human rights principles the way you suggest when you compare our country to those with repressive regimes.
If you look at the bible as a flat book, then I don’t disagree with you. That’s also how I was originally taught the bible — that there was no spiritual growth or (horrors!) evolution in the bible
In the “flat book” approach, the commandmentss of God to slay rival tribes have as much authority as Christ’s command to love our enemy.
But I later ran into more (horrors!) liberal Christians who see the process of biblical revelation as a growing one. The peace teachings of Jesus were a culmination of revelation, not on equal par with some of the Old Testament stuff like stoning your own children.
Furthermore, these Christians believe that the spiritual growth of our shared faith didn’t freeze in time 2000 years ago. That’s why it can be a Christian position to oppose slavery even though it was generally accepted back then.
It’s also why more liberal Christians can accept the mythic and symbolic truth behind the creation and flood stories while no longer believing them as purely-factual recorded history. Even though we are less literalistic we still feel we are fully respecting the inspiration and authority of our scriptures.
Some of you nailed it on the head (I’m too lazy to point out numbers). Beyond the crappy Christian stuff he tries to push on the kids, the big thing is that he abused his position. He could have preached Jebus-talk, Hinduism, Muslimism (yeah I made that up), whatever. It’s wrong for a teacher, an “authority figure” to those students, to impart his personal beliefs upon them, instead of that which he was employed to teach.
On a side note, anyone who thinks that Dinosaurs were on the Ark is an idiot. Yes, you, Mr. Devout Christian, you cannot grasp even the simplest facts about science, and it makes me kind of sick so many Americans live in that fantasy land.
I actually know a guy who worked on the Creationist museum in Kentucky or Kansas, one of those southern, backwater hick places. Apparantly, they have a very liberal take on the serpent in the Adam and Eve story – they carved a giant dinosaur/dragon in the tree with the apple. It’s pretty obvious these wierdos are changing thier interpretation of their own book to try to make creationism “hip” and “cool,” when, in fact, it’s incredibly lame.
77 –
You also forgot to mention that Nazi’s were Christians. Most people forget that Nazi was a political point of view. Even the Vatican turned their back on the Holocaust. And that wasn’t a long time ago.
Like the Native Americans.
Or the Salem Witch Trials.
Or the Spanish Inquisition.
Or the Crusades.
Somehow, the poor “underdog” Christians sure have managed to kill alot of people. Sounds about as violent as the Bible, I guess not much has changed.
#77: Boy, talk about irony! What you’re saying is that God handed down how we are supposed to live and what we are to believe. Man, who then obviously considered himself better than God, decided this wasn’t good enough, and changed what God handed down. Man had to drop some of God’s commands because they were too difficult, weren’t amenable to “spiritual growth”, etc.
So that means in order to become more religious/closer to God/spiritual you have to move farther from His teachings, commands, etc.
I guess that means there are two possibilities. First, God is fallible and therefore humans were required to correct God’s mistakes. Or second, man is an arrogant bastard who can’t accept/live with/tolerate/”spiritually grow” without changing or ignoring what God provided. Not sure what other options there are.
Oh, yeah. Some dinosaurs apparently were big enough to eat the ark described in the bible.
Why are H.S. teachers such idiots?
I don’t know why there is so much argument. I thought we established a long time ago in these forums that there was no god. Did you all forget?
41, and unfortunately you’d be wrong…privacy has nothing to do with it…it is illegal to record someone’s voice without explicit consent in PA, regardless of the environment, period. Sorry, but that’s the law and the PA state courts have upheld it. Go there and argue expectations and all that, but you won’t get anywhere.
80…HS teacher’s aren’t idiots….religious zealots are idiots.
#8 I checked out the links you submitted for reference to the separation of church and state, this is what I found related to the issue:
“The Supreme Court recognized that under the First Amendment, the Congress cannot pass a law that prohibits the free exercise of religion. However it argued that the law prohibiting bigamy did not fall under this.”
“”As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.””
So far, it sounds to me like the role of the government is not to interfere with religion, that its citizens are free to practice, so long as it does not break existing law (like the bigamy case above).
Is the problem then that the teacher is not considered a citizen, but a government employee/agent?
and, out of curiosity, if that is the issue, what of students leading religious acts in schools — like prayer at football games?
just asking, not stirring or trolling.
I’m really just not very familiar with this debate.
two questions, I would appreciate some sincere educating responses.
WokTiny — as I understand it, kids at the school can pray at football games and lead groups, however teachers cannot since they are seen as people with power over the kids and that imposing their beliefs would be an abuse of that power.
#83 WorkTiny
It is a very fine line. A public school is publicly funded by tax dollars. The public school is a government agency created under the laws of the state. The children can pray privately if they choose but they may not use the public school as a pulpit. Which means they can’t walk the halls preaching to others. Also, they can not do it when it will interfere with the normal operations or activities of the school program. The teachers are under the same limitations. The can do it privately but may not preach to anyone children or other teacher alike. Teachers are in a special position of power over the children so when a teacher violates the first amendment it is more grievous than when a student does the same thing.
In private schools this is not the case. Despite the fact that they are under government regulation they are not a government agency. They may hold classes where the children do nothing but pray if they wish but they are required by law to teach a basic education in addition to any of there other curriculum
This is the way it was always supposed to be. The reason many of us remember religious things is school is that this country was dominated by one religion in particular so most people never had a problem with it and those that did just kept their mouth shut because of fear or timidness. Well those days are past. Society seems to have grown a pair and is now standing up for what is right and what was supposed to be all along. Our founding fathers knew that religion and state power were not a good combination and when a religion has the power of the state behind it eventually their is no freedom. Take a look over at the middle east. That is a good example of what happens when religion gets the power of the state behind it.
So, when teachers get in trouble for merely having a bible on his desk, but not preaching it, that is the opposite extreme that is not intended by the strict seperationists? That is to say, that as with every other doctine, there are people who take it to far?
What then, is the definition of religion?
And how then, do we protect our children from the preaching of inappropriate, yet still non-religious, doctrines?
another way to ask that is, “Since atheists don’t have a church, are their doctrines acceptable in gov’t funded schools?”
and if so, does not that provide a discrimination between the two groups: those claiming religion, and those disclaiming religion?
Well a bible on the desk would be seen as preaching or promoting therefore not allowed. It is not private. He has it out on the desk. Now….A teacher is allowed to keep a bible or Koran in their “teacher bag” or perhaps in their private desk even if the desk is provided by the state. If they leave it on the desk that is proselytizing because it could prompt a student to ask questions about the book which the teacher should not be answering.
“What then, is the definition of religion?”
I don’t have my Blacks Law Dictionary with me but religion under the law is generally defined as The service and worship of God or the supernatural
“And how then, do we protect our children from the preaching of inappropriate, yet still non-religious, doctrines?”
Well that may fall into onto other laws depending on what is being preached. For instance a Skin Head teacher decides to use his position as a teacher to recruit new members would probably fall under hate speech laws or contributing to the delinquency of a minor (maybe).
“Since atheists don’t have a church, are their doctrines acceptable in gov’t funded schools?”
Well it really depends on what their “doctrine” is. If they are teaching hate then no it isn’t allowed. If they are teaching well founded educational material then yes it is.
“and if so, does not that provide a discrimination between the two groups: those claiming religion, and those disclaiming religion? ”
Well if an atheist decides that he is going to use his position as a teacher to bash religion then in fact they have entered into the religious zone so no they are not allowed to do that. The first amendment protects both ways. It protects me from having your religion forced on me and it protects you from the state telling you that your religion is stupid or unacceptable.
BUT I get the feeling that you are alluding to the evolution debate. Evolution has nothing to do with religion. Just because it directly contradicts things taught in certain religions doesn’t mean it is religious in nature. Evolution is an area of science just like the concept of the earth revolves around the sun is a matter of science despite the fact that the church supported the earth centric view for a great deal of time. No one today argues that it shouldn’t be taught in our schools and for the same reason evolution should be taught. It is science and not a religious doctrine despite what many religious people would have you believe.
J,
I appreciate your thorough and calm response, it is not the norm here.
For the record I was not alluding to evolution, had not even entered my mind. To that end, I will refrain from saying anything more about it here.
I’m more concerned with where we are going, both as a species and a nation.
I remain concerned about where lines are drawn, and to what extent they permit the freedom of speech and of religion.
This problem of where-to-draw-lines is made worse by the sprawling nature of our government, that is, by our government being involved in everything. That said, the question become, “Why should the government control so many things?” or in this case, “… schools?” which is, admittedly, a question for a different thread.
#77 Greg, I have a slightly different take than your “growing revelation” approach. I believe that the Hebrew and Christian religions have simply evolved to keep pace with the cultures that first invented and now worship the Hebrew God. Long ago, these cultures were so primitive that stoning people to death (including your own children) was acceptable, and slavery was acceptable. But if religions had never evolved from that point, they would have died out, and their priests and rulers would have lost the power that religion gave them. So as time goes by, religious leaders continue to discover more and more accommodations to be made so that religion isn’t left behind, outpaced by cultural norms. Yahweh is not quite the constant “Rock of Ages” that we were taught to admire for his unchanging nature.
Even if you’re correct, I’m not sure what value the “mythic and symbolic truth behind the creation and flood stories” actually has. The Great Flood appears to be the admission of a design error in Creation so serious that it could only be corrected by drowning everyone except Noah and his family. Whether literal or symbolic, I don’t see how it tells a tale of a merciful God. It only seems to teach fear of a God so horrible that killing men, women, children, and babies doesn’t bother Him the way it would bother you or me.
Mixing intentional myth with alleged reality, with no clear lines of distinction between the two, seems like it could almost be a toxic combination, wide open to anyone’s self-serving interpretation. That doesn’t seem to be a huge improvement over the “flat book” approach you talked about.
Doesn’t the US constitution start with ‘One Nation under God..’??
Sounds like a bunch of hypocrits if you ask me…
57?
and you think that ALL those christiens, are practicing??
Moral decline comes from the Dis-illusioned.
From all those Preachers Falling from grace.
Fromt he church, hiding Child molesters.
From money to the POOR ending up in OTHER hands.
they may be christiens, but they AINT LISTENING.
then I like those that GO to church to hide, them selves in the roaring crowd. Hipocrites ALL.
AND to class ALL those who bekieve in Christ as Christien, IS A SHAM. that like saying Baptists rank up there with Puritans. Or NOT knowing that there are more then 1 group of Jews/hebrews…THINKING that there is only 1 group of muslims..
Thinking that ALL Chineese are Bhudist…
You folks make me SICK. Get off the FORK, you are DONE and chrispy…
90, Under GOD wasnt insert until the 1800’s… And Our Pledge of alliegence added it in the 50’s..
#91: God is in the Constitution? Which country’s constitution are you referring to, because god certainly is not in the United State’s Constitution! I recommend doing some research before inserting your head up your tailpipe…
ECA – No, I don’t think they are all practicing Christians, and I wasn’t making any political statement – I was just trying to get some facts out there as some people keep quoting stats without any backup.
Personally I’m an agnostic, my wife is the same but culturally Jewish. I’m certainly not trying to push the idea that because the US is mostly a Christian population that it should be a Christian State. That is a rather dumb idea really, especially as if you look at the figures it was one of the slowest growing religions as well.
My position is that it is crazy to think that religion = morals, which a lot of people seem to do. The same goes for Bible = Science.