All Headline News – November 17, 2006:
Citing security reasons, the traditionally permissive Dutch government said on Friday that it plans to draw up legislation that will ban wearing burqas and other Muslim face veils in public. The move would make the Netherlands the first European state to impose a countrywide ban on the traditional Islamic attire.
Dutch immigration minister, Rita Verdonk, announced the move-which comes just five days before national elections-as a way to increase security and protection of Dutch citizens. After the bill is drafted by the current center-right government, it will be sent to the 150-member legislature for approval.
The move signals a sharp departure from the Netherland’s traditionally tolerant laws which includes the legalization of marijuana and prostitution, and has already raised concerns by several Muslim-rights organization.
The main Dutch Muslim organization, CMO, has called the idea “an overreaction to a very marginal problem,” blasting the ban as being “just ridiculous.”
According to the report, around 1 million Muslims live in the Netherlands, comprising about 6% of the 16 million population, with only a few hundred believed to regularly wear a burqa.
Will the banning of hoodies and ski masks be next?
I wonder how the Netherlands got a 6% Muslim minority?
“I wonder how the Netherlands got a 6% Muslim minority?”
Um… immigration and a high birth rate among Muslims? 😉
Let’s just make it easier, No one is allowed to wear any covering of any type over any part of their body. Except when nneded to protect from sever cold, wind, and precipitation, and then only government approved clear coverings
This should be the required headgear for Dutch Muslims (men and women both). Why? Because it is a funny idea. 🙂
Considering that there are elections over here on Wednesday, it cannot be ruled out this was a propaganda stunt pulled out by mrs. Verdonk; who’s party is doing badly in the polls.
It’s a good idea… and one that should be adopted in all Western countries. It has nothing to do with security though…
It should be down because that’s how you take the first steps to chip away at the barbaric treatment of women in the backward Islamic fundamentalist way of life, and help these people progress and evolve into modern, free people.
Women are not a subserviant class, nor are they property. They may be brainwashed today into thinking they are, but a few generations down the road there will be a new crop of grateful and self determined Islamic women. Further men, who are told they’ll turn into monsterous rapists at the sight of an ankle or the nape of a neck will prove that they are in fact not primitive animals… only that they were ruled by primitive rules…
#6 Women are not a subservient class, but the law must dictate how they dress? There are feminists in the US who probably think that scanty clothing demeans women but they have been “brainwashed” into accepting their role as sex objects. Should they be allowed to outlaw low-rider jeans and belly shirts?
#7 doug
I’m having trouble getting your point.
Are you saying there are no problems with fundamentalist muslim women being treated as second class citizens?
#7 🙂
Sometimes you gotta force people to do as you command them to do in order to make them free….
🙂
#8. What I am saying is that in the west, we value choice. If Muslim women choose to wear the burka, that is their choice. No one should make them not do so or not make them do so.
Forced assimilation is not assimilation.
Some think that wearing a burqua is a positive empowering thing. Some women, and Michael Jackson, prefer to not be judged on how they look.
It’s a stupid thing to do- the only function the law will have is suppressing the rights of Muslim women.
That said, I can’t wait for the Muslims to substantiate their own reputations by overreacting, rioting, and destroying things.
#10
You know what; I used to think so also. But I have changed my mind. People who immigrate should accept the conditions of the country they move into. Human rights, equality between sexes, and equality under law are a few qualities Netherlands holds high.
These values are pretty much absent in many (all) muslim counties. I think the immigrants should be told to leave attitudes incompatible with our way of life at the border. It they enjoy that part of life so much, I’d say they should rather get back to where they came from.
We cannot turn back the time to the middle ages in the name of “free assimilation”.
Parts of Europe are now starting to see the reality of their country with an alarming growing fundamental muslim population. Needless to say, it is scary.
We must not “understand and accept” suppression of women just because we are taking an understanding approach to other people’s customs and belief. It’s ridiculous to do so.
Creation of ghettos and a bunch of first generation losers unable to speak the language of the country they live in is the result. In addition to the despicable treatment of women.
Amen
#13
Horseshit!!!!
Did you take time to reread the bigoted and racist remarks of your post?
What are your sources of your statements? I suspect they came from the same place as the horseshit. They are bigoted and racist opinions that you put forth as fact.
If there upset they should leave.
They made the choice to move there they should make the choice to fit in.
#15
“Did you take time to reread the bigoted and racist remarks of your post?”
Yes.
Your Horseshit!!!! comment wasn’t very helpful.
Please enlighten me and point out where I was a racist.
Doug raises a good point. Western societies value choice. If a woman desires to wear certain clothing then what gives us the right to tell her she can’t. The flaw in this argument is, as I understand, that these women are basically forced into wearing this clothing, it is not a choice for them.
So how can we give them a choice that is a choice?
#15, this is Roger’s opinion. He even stated it is what he thinks. Regardless of how much we disagree with an opinion, an opinion can not be wrong.
I can speak of much anecdotal evidence that first generations have a difficult time assimilating. It is especially true that all adults have a difficult time learning a new language. For a source, try The Cultural Mosaic by John Porter. Shoot, that book was published around 1965, but it went into great detail about immigrants not assimilating into Canadian society after WWII. A seminal work.
Read it again!! Then Discover what Google is all about!!
“Creation of ghettos and a bunch of first generation losers unable to speak the language of the country they live in is the result.”
Racism is commonly defined as a belief or doctrine where inherent biological differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, with a corollary that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
I guess you admit to being a Bigot since you didn’t ask for a explanation but in case you forget.
A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from their own.
I stand by my remarks.
Oil of Dog, I fail to see an example “inherent biological differences” in the quote you chose from Rogers post. There is no Racism in his comment.
So what – outlaw the burka to liberate women, then send them to jail for disobeying the law? How Orwellian – tyranny is freedom.
Chew on this – take woman who does not want to wear the burka, but whose husband is forcing her to. If she felt at home in the society. If she had a good support network of non-Muslim or Muslim, but non-burka-wearing women, or just a bunch of people she could turn to in times of trouble. If she had that, she could cast off the burka and face the domestic consequences, secure that she would have some help.
Does this sound like the place that Muslim women have in European countries? If not, why not? Isn’t outlawing the burka just a shameful shortcut to doing the hard work of un-isolating Muslim women within these societies?
Frankly, the law has a remarkably short reach, only as long as the arm of the nearest cop. You want to liberate women of any religion? Pass a law requiring men to do 50% of the housework. See how effectively that is enforced.
I look out of my American window, at a nearby park. I can see women in burkas, in saris, in headscarves. And I can feel fairly confident that if they REALLY wanted to toss on Western togs, they could do so, and there would be someone who would back them up.
I agree that Doug has a good point.
But I wish it was just about choice of clothing. As we know, women in general have historically been treated as second class citizens. And in many areas this is still the case.
But I have to admit, I think the muslim faith is especially weak in the field of equality between sexes. I don’t even have to mention the treatment raped women receive. The horror stories come of course often from countries pretty much run by muslim clerics. Needless to say, people with a democratic mindset would not support such a political system.
So, when clothing becomes a way of suppressing someone from equality, I think it’s only fair to say it’s wrong.
There are many things all of us (uhm, many of us) agree are totally unacceptable. For instance circumcision of women. This horrible “custom” happens unfortunately even today. But I don’t think anyone would support it in our civilized, well informed societies. Not even in the name of free choice.
Now, the critical question is, where to draw the line?
Where is the border between totally unacceptable, and “OK, I don’t like it, but I accept it”?
If any custom are pushed upon somebody, a custom that are “institutionalized” (even as in religion) and in effect makes the person less “valid”, have less rights, or limits this person compared to the rest, I dare to say this custom is despicable and must be abandoned.
I know, many women do not mind. In fact, they are perfectly alright being second class citizens. At least that’s what some of them say when asked. Again, they are wrong. I think the “Stockholm Syndrome” covers that part pretty well.
Is it wrong to call a whole generation of immigrants losers? Well, maybe. Let me point out what I mean. For many years I lived in Europe. And in the area I lived, there were many immigrants from from a certain muslim country. They were encouraged to keep their customs, culture and even language. They were given their native mother tongue education free of charge from their new homeland. Much less emphasis were given on making sure they learned the language of the country they actually lived in. It’s easy to guess the result. They were completely aliens in the country. Didn’t understand the language. Fell out of the “normal” school system and no jobs except in the very low range.n Of course the circle didn’t stop there. (Hm, but I better stop here 😉 )
Am I a racist? I don’t think so. Actually, I find women from other races than my own to be god damn hot, to tell the truth. I admire other people, their music and culture. And I wish they didn’t segregate themselves so much. I think I find myself way over in the other end of the scale actually.
Why am I so hot headed about this? Probably because I hate spiritual racism just as much as I do hate the plain type.
Pardon me for getting carried away here 🙂
#19
LOL oil of Dog, sorry I didn’t see your post before I posted #22.
If it makes you happy, and if you need a little support for your Google skills, I’ll gladly admit:
Yes, I am a racist.
Yes, I am a Bigot.
In your eyes anyway…..
6. “They may be brainwashed today into thinking they are, but a few generations down the road there will be a new crop of grateful and self determined Islamic women.”
I was thinking, “this is actually just about right.” Then I scrolled down and… “Oh for the love of…”
So not to let you off so easy… Who’s to say they’re brainwashed? If a woman insists on this or that or wearing a veil or insisting upon being subservient to men, who else is to say they know better as to what that woman should want? Men from different cultures? Women from different cultures? Should the rest of the world get to vote on what these women should be forced to want or have? Should we have re-education camps like they have in Viet Nam?
Could modern and savvy Western women be like-wise brainwashed? Lipstick and makeup. Let’s not allow women to wear this stuff because they only do it to please men. It’s literally symbolic of women’s oppression by men. And dresses too, while we’re at it. What’s up with those things anyway? Clothing that is cut open at the bottom so that a woman’s underwear is openly exposed below. Just who do you think might have come up with and enforced that one? Pigs who walk like men, that’s who. But even so, aren’t these all still a woman’s own personal “choices” to make?
No, it’s cultural brainwashing, it is. All orchestrated by men. And the faster the more enlightened of us get rid of it all, the better. Sure, women will bitch about the loss… and their right to “autonomy”, but women generations from now will thank perceptive people like you and me. There will be a new crop of grateful and self-determined women.
RBG
WOOT #4 lol great idea
and thats a great “veil” photo, i wonder how many will riot when she takes it off?
The Netherlands used to be the most laid back, welcoming, non-judgemental of the European countries. Then they woke up to Pim being murdered by a Muslim for his views on immigration, and 2 years later Van Gough killed in the street by a Muslim just for writing the truth about women in the Muslim world. They have members of the Parliment having to be moved around to safe houses to protect them, because they suggested Muslims needed to start learning the language and make an attempt to get work, instead of living off the very generous welfare benifits in Holland.
So, now, they have the toughest immigration laws in the E.U……and soon will have this burqa ban.
The E.U. is just waking up to the fact that they have a major problem in their midst…….the Muslim fundies in Holland, France, Britain, Germany, and Belgium, make our problems with illegal immigration look like a kids birthday party.
In Britain they are going to use the excuse that people must be identifiable by CCTV cameras, so no hoodies, no hats in pubs, no Burqas. I’m not sure why Holland specifically is banning them, but they are. And there most likely will be problems as soon as the law passes. Amsterdam may not be the fun place it once was.
I don’t agree with this law, on principals. One should be able to dress whatever way one chooses, so long of course that it’s by one’s choice. Ironycally, muslims from arabs countries have no right to complain about this law. In Iran or Saudi Arabia, they force all women, muslim or not to wear the headscarf or worse as in taliban afghanistan, the burka. So they really don’t have any say in another country puting restriction on how one can dress.
“The move signals a sharp departure from the Netherland’s traditionally tolerant laws which includes the legalization of marijuana and prostitution, and has already raised concerns by several Muslim-rights organization.”
Marijuana and sex professionals make life more enjoyable. Terrorists hiding like cowards under a sheet is a REAL problem. Why lump them into the same catagory?
About the “brainwashing” of women….
Pretty much all religions and religious practices represent brainwashing. Most people are indoctrinated in it from birth, usually with “heavenly” or earthly retribution if you stray from the path or customs.
Cultural traditions are brainwashing as well, but in most cases, the retribution is not along the lines of you’ll burn in hell after you die.
22 Is it wrong to call a whole generation of immigrants losers? Well, maybe. Let me point out what I mean. … They were completely aliens in the country. Didn’t understand the language. Fell out of the “normal” school system and no jobs except in the very low range.
Good paragraph.
I believe it would be a racist remark if you meant they were “losers” just because they are immigrants. i.e. lazy, stupid, etc
Saying they are “losing” – e.g. at an economic disadvantage – due to their cultural isolation within their adopted country is not what I consider a racist statement.