Even Modest Reforms Outrage Fundamentalists

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP) — Pakistan lawmakers passed amendments to the country’s contentious rape laws, making it easier for victims to prosecute their attackers, and dropping the death penalty and flogging as punishments for extramarital sex.

Islamist fundamentalists, however, were furious and stormed out of parliament in protest at Wednesday’s vote.

The changes, which must still be approved by the Senate, give judges discretion to try rape cases in a criminal rather than Islamic court, where women have to present at least four witnesses for a conviction.

The amendments won cautious support from human rights activists, but they urged the government to take bolder steps and scrap the law, known as the Hudood Ordinance.

“We reject it,” Maulana Fazlur Rahman, a top Islamist opposition leader, told reporters after the vote, which he described as a “dark day” in Pakistan’s parliamentary history.

Strict Islamic laws dictate that a woman who claims rape must produce four witnesses in court, making a trial of the alleged rapist almost impossible because such attacks rarely happen in public.

There as here, religious fundamentalists will only be brought into the 21st century kicking and screaming. And these are only baby steps.



  1. WokTiny says:

    The amendments won cautious support from human rights activists, but they urged the government to take bolder steps and scrap the law, known as the Hudood Ordinance.

    Nay, it sounds to me like they want more, not less, change.

  2. Greg Allen says:

    It’s not just a Muslim thing.

    In India they just passed an anti-violence against wife beating and the men are outraged!

    “Harassed husbands seek a pro-men law”
    http://www.gulfnews.com/world/India/10082911.html

    Still, having spent a long time in Pakistan, I can testify to how terrible the Hadood laws are for women.

    The law often DOUBLE victimized the woman because first she’d be raped and then she’d be prosecuted as an adulteress unless there were four male, Muslim eye witnesses to the rape.

    Then, there was a likelihood of a third, ultimate, victimization if the family of the “adulteress” thought she’d brought shame on them — i.e. “honor” killing.

  3. SN says:

    The only group of people who could possibly be against bringing rapists to justice would be rapists themselves.

    I guess I’ve said enough to make my point.

  4. Greg Allen says:

    >>The only group of people who could possibly be against rape laws would be rapists.
    >>I guess I’ve said enough to make my point.

    In Pakistan I don’t think it is quite that simple. I think far more people are against changing the Hadood ordinances than just rapists.

    The issue gets demagogued as being “pro family” and “pro religion” (of course I, personally, think it is neither.) There is also a traditional belief in Islam (or, at least, the cultures I know) that women are morally weak regarding sex. It’s a bizarre notion to me, since the men in those same cultures cat around like crazy — far more than the women do in my observation.

    Even so, the men think that, most likely, it is the women who “wanted” the sexual encounter. The man couldn’t resist the temptation and thus is not morally culpable (that got blogged here about that Australian cleric recently)

    It’s so weird, by my American standards, that it has taken me years to only half understand it. It sort of reminds me of the American anti-feminism movement among the religious right. The whole issues gets blurred into “traditional values”, family, sexuality, etc.

  5. Tom 2 says:

    I put these muslim countries who brutalize their women in the same category as darfur though things might look up if this law actually passes.

  6. SN says:

    “I think far more people are against changing the Hadood ordinances than just rapists”

    Anyone who is against bringing rapists to justice is pro-rape in my book. They may not exactly rape women themselves, but they obviously see nothing wrong with doing it.

  7. Mr. Fusion says:

    Greg A,

    Thank you for the thought provoking comment. I feel very similar to SN and I believe he might have been restraining himself a bit.

  8. WokTiny says:

    Some people might oppose a law if it is poorly written. Being for the cause, but against the implementation.

  9. Angel H. Wong says:

    They sound so much like evangelics the only difference is that evangelics like pork.

  10. Homer says:

    .mmmm…pork.

    I think we are dealing with a culture that extols rape, it’s that simple. Of course not everyone does it, but it is extolled and admired, even encouraged. Charming.

  11. WokTiny says:

    … you think

  12. Mucous says:

    Pull the women and children out and nuke the rest.

    This is the same crowd that we’re supposed to understanding of in the name of diversity. We’re supposed to respect them and co-exist with them? Sorry – ain’t happening.

    Make them eat chicken fried steak ice cream then nuke ’em.

  13. OhForTheLoveOf says:

    Greg A

    You are falling into the trap… and as I am a declared Liberal, let me say it is a “Liberal Trap” and one my side would do well to lose from our way of thinking…

    You are being sensitive to another culture, and respectful of their traditions, and observant of the fact that you come from a different background.

    Fine. But these Muslims aren’t wearing wooden shoes… They are murdering women for being the victims of rape. There is no consideration of their views or deference to their faith… these are animals and they need to be stopped. Islam cannot grow from the physical danger it is today into being just politically dangerous like Christianity is if these people are coddled.

    Change doesn’t occur because someone has a good idea and everyone agrees. Change is sometimes forced and finally accepted many generations later. You know… Like how guy who want to lynch blacks are far and few betwen these days, but a hundred years ago it was a community holiday.

  14. Max Bell says:

    One item about rape followed by two others about sex.

    *Tongue in cheek*

    By the time people are commenting on the last item, they’ve counted to three…

  15. WokTiny says:

    OhForTheLoveOf , please define “Liberal”

  16. DeLeMa says:

    I know I shouldn’t play games but, it would seem there should be some form of punishment for the Male (husband, whatever they have for clan leader ), who allows the rape to occur. I mean, his property got nailed and he’s the one who is supposed to guard that property, right ?
    Maybe, they could learn from another culture like, perhaps, the Japanese ? Hari-kari sounds about appropriate for the loss of face and honor. There’s got to be a downside for the rest of their clan, tribe or whatever they have over there ? You know, from my limited perspective, it makes me wonder just how the hell a society can operate like they have for so long ? Scary thing for me is there are/were similarities to the tactics I see our politicians beginning to use on us that make me wonder if we’re learning something about these guys that ain’t quite right ?

  17. OhForTheLoveOf says:

    #15

    Well, I’d say my definition will be met with agreement, disagreement, and any combination of the two from liberals, conservatives, and others…

    Liberal and conservative and other labels don’t really distill to simple statements well. I’ve read people who think liberal means that I want the state to pay me not to work. Only uneducated rubes think this, just as I’m a fool if I think all conservatives want me to work 20 hours in a coal mine for a dollar a week. I know only a few conservatives want that…

    As it relates to this issue, specifically, my brand of liberalism tell me that these women need to be protected from the tyranny of those particular men. On this issue in particular, I bet many conservatives agree.

    The trap I speak of is likely more to the point, which is that some liberals have hearts that bleed (and I’m lucky that I’m rather cold and unfeeling 🙂 ). They want to be sensitive to the differences in our cultures. I’m a big fan of pluralism and multiculturalism. I think black chicks are really sexy, for example. But this issue is a stone age hold over from another era, and i have no tolerance for it, precisely because tolerance for this is to be tolerant of murder.

    Did you enjoy how I completely didn’t answer your question?

  18. joshua says:

    Greg Allen, while struggling to understand why the Muslim culture in Pakistan is this way, never condones the practice. A true bleeding heart Liberal would have the struggle to understand why, and also gloss over, or ignore the bad aspects of the culture they want to feel **good** about.

    A really fast way to cause cultural change inthis situation is for about 100,000 Pakistani women becoming Lorena Bobbits over the same weekend. Starting with a few Imam’s and Mullahs wives….bet some laws get changed in a New York minute.

  19. Moral Volcano says:

    2. In India they just passed an anti-violence against wife beating and the men are outraged!

    Men are not outraged because violent husbands will go to jail. They are outraged because husbands can be thrown into jail or thrown out of his house on flimsy grounds. Burden of proof also lies with the man, which means a guy will always have to carry a camcorder or be wired to a taperecorder.

    In a famous case last year, a woman who slept with a film director filed a case of rape because the guy did not keep his promise giving the woman an acting role in one of his films. He was accused of 13 counts of rape – the number of times they had consensual sex. Of course, he got out but he had to spend some time in jail.

  20. OhForTheLoveOf says:

    #19 – Did you read the article? Do you know what we are talking about? Are you just a typical sub-literate mysogenist? Is Pakistan brimming with shady film director’s tricking starlets into sex for movie roles?

    We are talking about laws that punish rape victims with death.


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