Time to clean house on these intrusions to privacy and overzealous cities bent on ripping more money from our pockets (ie, a hidden tax). Next up, hopefully, speed traps.
Steubenville, Ohio Voters Overwhelmingly Reject Speed Cameras
An overwhelming majority of voters in Steubenville, Ohio rejected the city’s speed camera program yesterday in a referendum on whether the city ordinance authorizing the program should stand. With all precincts reporting, 76.2 percent of voters said “no.”
The program began last year issuing nearly 7000 tickets worth $85 each to motorists driving as little as 5 MPH over the speed limit. It would have generated nearly $600,000 in revenue until Jefferson County Court of Common Pleas Judge David E. Henderson struck down the city ordinance as illegal in March. Because the city is bound by contract to continue the services of German camera operator Traffipax, regardless of the program’s legality, it defied the judge’s order and reinstated an essentially identical ordinance to continue issuing citations.
Tuesday’s vote puts an end to the traffic cameras and serves as a victory for attorney Gary Stern who won a class action lawsuit to return the money that had been illegally collected from motorists. He also gathered enough signatures to put the speed camera question to a vote of the people. The public has never voted in favor of photo enforcement. Between 1991 and 1997, voters turned out in Batavia, Illinois; Peoria, Arizona and Anchorage, Alaska to reject photo radar.
I honestly don’t see how this is a privacy issue. Would people be happier if every camera was replaced by a human cop with a radar gun?
If people don’t like the speeding laws or associated fines, CHANGE THEM. I know its not easy to change these ‘administrative’ type regulations, but at least try.
I am a big believer in privacy (and would love a constitutional amendment), but narrowly targeted technology to enforce specific laws is fine with me.
As a libertarian, it pains me to think that the real reason many of these technologies are rejected is not for privacy fears, or even the fears of slippery slope to totalitarian control…. it gets rejected because people like to get away with breaking the law.
For every person who does a ‘cash’ transaction on the principle of privacy and not wanting the government/companies to know their business, there are hundreds of people who use cash to break the law (not pay taxes, hire illegals, etc). Same with these cameras.
Yup, I agree with number 1 completely.
I would absolutely love a speed camera on my street. People drive dangerously fast on my one block shortcut.
With enough technology, no one is above the law.
OK, I agree with #1, 2, & 3. This isn’t a privacy issue but a law enforcement issue. Although it may be a little late today, if you don’t like the speed limit, then change it.
This isn’t a law enforcment issue. It is ALL about money.
Most of these ‘laws’ are mostly about money. Just in a few cases are local authorities actually concerned about real problems.
And don’t forget parking meters! Here in Portugal, where I live, we can have parking meters in one side of the street, being run by a private (!!!) company (started with local/public funds!!!), with cars being fined and towed away, and on the other side of the street you can peacefully park on the curb, nobody will bother you!!!! And if you live in one of those streets, you are entitled to ONE (not two or more) sign to put on you windshield, to be able to park there without paying. BUT you have to pay for that sign!!!!! It happens in Oeiras, Portugal!
Regulate parking, yes. Make a business out of it, no! We pay enough taxes already!
5 & 6…what do you recommend the penalties for infractions should be?
Catching speeders? No, no, you’ve got it all wrong. This trap catches those who like to pick and choose the laws they obey.
RBG
When will people realize that governments and courts should not be in the business of making money. The excuse that it would have brought in lots of money is EXACTLY why it should not be done. If enforcement were truly the issue, then eliminate the fines tickets generated by these cameras and only have the court and insurance implications.
Think yourselves lucky you get a chance to vote on these things.
In Australia these things are everywhere. And $85 is nothing, here you’re looking anywhere from$125 to $700.
And the best part, the road toll’s been steadily rising ever since they were introduced.
I am happy to hear that if laws were all perfectly enforced we would all be perfectly happy. In reality we would all be in jail. You self-righteous nutcases are so eager to see others punished that you would throw yourselves into the net too.
Machines shouldn’t enforce laws, laws shouldn’t be used to raise money, and if we had one tenth of the laws we have now that would be too many. We’re dying from too many laws, too many corrupt officials, too many privileged contracts between business and governments, and not enough sense.
Public is PUBLIC..
what the state does in public to maintain control, is what we elected them to DO.
change the LAWS, or deal with it.
“For every person who does a ‘cash’ transaction on the principle of privacy and not wanting the government/companies to know their business, there are hundreds of people who use cash to break the law (not pay taxes, hire illegals, etc). Same with these cameras. ”
Yeah, tough shit. You have to take the good with the bad. Nobody said freedom doesnt have a downside, the alternative (cashless society) is completely unacceptable due to the privacy question alone. There are some things you just have to live with to stay FREE.
Improbus, you are exactly right (5 mph over the speed limit) at least a human cop has the discretion to give you a break.
Change the laws huh? That is hard to do when your voting districts are gerrymandered to a fare-thee-well. The difference between law makers and criminal syndicates is just a matter of degree.
There is a device that will warn you of upcoming Photo Radar and RedLight Cams it’s called NavAlert. This device uses a very large GPS database to tell you when you are approaching one and tell you distance and what the posted speed limit is to slow down to. This devise is very accurate !!!!! There is a video posted on their website which will show it in action.
I’m always shocked that no one has managed to tie an insurance company to one of these photo traffic sytems’s cash flow. They are the ones that make out big!
But, being that as it may, Hurray for the folks in Ohio! Here in the USA we are supposed to have a right to face our accuser. I’ve never heard of anyone putting one of those photo radar machines on the witness stand.
As for everyone wanting to get away with breaking the law, well, #11 said it. We all drive 5 mph over the speed limit, a good part of the time. Heck, here in LA, there are 2 driving speeds:
1) stop and go due to traffic
2) 10-25 mph over the limit.
We don’t have photo speed cameras, but if we did, it would only cost us money and take away some of our most valuable asset: time.
They DID install photo red light cameras at 2 intersections near my home a couple of years ago. Now, we have rear end collisions weekly, as drivers slam on the brakes to avoid getting caught. Before the cameras, it would be maybe a fender bender every couple of months due to someone running the light, and we STILL have some of those.
But, besides the sleazy money aspects of these cameras, by far the worst part is the constant surveillance. About 20 years ago, I came up with a concept for a Sci-Fi novel set in a future world where people never left their homes without wearing a mask, due to constant surveillance. I guess it is time to sit down and write the rest!
DAve
If wear a mask now the government and law enforcement would probably consider you a terrorist and/or a criminal. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about …. yeah righttttt.
I agree with everyone here. You all make good points for and against. But what is the real issue. Some say money, some say to catch lawbreakers, but isn’t the base reason to ensure public safety? Consider the following:
1) There aren’t enough policemen, and it’s a waste of resources) to have standing around as deterrents to speeders.
2) The speed limit should be set to a safe level based on reasonable and available data. Going over that limit IS a danger to others, so you should be fined accordingly.
3) Yes, cameras don’t give you a “break”, but why do you deserve a break? Cameras are non discriminating and ensures fairness.
4) Realistically the fines should start at 2-3 km’s over the limit. Thats what maximum limit means. Having a large sometimes maybe grey area is just stupid.
5) Charge a reasonable amount, say $10 for the first 3 kms, and $10 foe each km over after that.
6) Equip cars with optional speed monitoring. If you choose to turn it on it would sound when you go over your preset limit. You could preprogram several touch sensitive preset limits for your area for instance.
There are probably many other common sense things to do to ensure public (and your own) safety, but my point is that if you find yourself slamming on your brakes and that extra 5km/hr caused you to run over a child, you deserve a good kick in the ass.
If you want to ensure public safety on the roads then you should begin at the driver’s license test. A driver’s license in this country is just too easy to get. The public thinks driving is a right not a privilege.
“4) Realistically the fines should start at 2-3 km’s over the limit. Thats what maximum limit means. Having a large sometimes maybe grey area is just stupid.”
True, I ALWAYS use cruise control to keep my speed in check, of course it doesnt work
my comments were cut off……
below 35mph, so I have to keep looking at the speedometer, taking my eyes off the road. I have been pulled over for doing 5 mph over the limit, but given a warning, I suspect because he was bored. Most decent cops will not bother.
I have to agree with Ezekiel here, machines have no judgment. Here in Los Angeles the highway speed limit is a rather low 65mph. This limit doesn’t seem to have much to do with safety because it’s almost a blanket limit. Many, many people drive safely at 10mph over the limit, when conditions permit, every day for decades on end.
I find that generally the highway patrol use their judgment and pull over the worst, most erratic offenders. This arrangement seems to work reasonably well in my opinion. On the other hand, if we had adaptive speed limits like the ones featured on some of the high tech highways in Germany I could potentially see a place for automated enforcement.
I drive just like everyone else.
However, let me play Olo the Ethicist for just a moment. Is it OK if I assault someone just a little? Is it OK is I only shoplift little things? Can I rape someone for just a moment?
Realistically car speedometers aren’t accurate enough to nail anyone for a couple mph/kph, nor are the radars that accurate eithere. But still, the thought that you should be allowed to break the speed limit just because you want to is asinine.
Mailing someone a ticket does not equal handing them one in person.
In my town, about half of the traffic stops results in arrests for other major crimes, including outstanding warrants and in one case, a most wanted fugitive.
I remember a line from “Liar Liar” that starts off a bit like… “Stop breaking the law a
#18, Jim
Your best post to date. Very well put.
And if you think traffic fines are “all about money”, then please suggest another appropriate method of enforcing the laws. Olo Baggins made some good comparisons in #23, but I want to know how you would handle it.
Don’t want to be seen on traffic cameras? Don’t break the law.
This isn’t a ‘privacy’ issue, this is people feeling they have a right to break laws without reprisal.
Don’t speed, you won’t get ticketed. Pretty simple!
#1 You got it.
Since when was the government ever supposed to devise ways to make more money? Governments (almost) across the board need less money and less power and need to give that money and power back to the people, where it should be in the first place. All of these arbitrary laws that make criminals out of everyday people need to be overturned and repealed.
Stop making me a criminal for watching a DVD in Linux!!!
1) Having a machine decide to issue you a citation is SCARY!
2) Most of the time a machine issued citation is an administrative fine, like a parking ticket, not a moving citation like an officer pulling you over and writing you a ticket. That’s how they get away with the “facing your accuser” argument.
3) See number 1 again.
4) I have an automatic toll paying device in my car. How long will it be until they start issuing me a citation if I go from 1 toll plaza to the next too quickly.
5) See number 1 again.
Are you seeing a pattern here.
I speed. Constantly. I have been in 4 accidents in 24 years of driving. All happened at less than 5 mph, and only 1 of those was my fault. According to all of the gung ho, thou shalt not break the law freaks in this conversation, I should be banned from driving. Just last week I got a ticket for squealing my tires. Can you beat that? Could a computer have figured out I was squealing my tires, and that I was borderline drunk. I got spanked for $155 bucks and sent home. Doh!
The point is, it takes police officers, out driving on the roads, looking at what us a**holes are doing out there to keep things in line. The only thing these automated systems will do is convince short sighted politicians to cut back on real human cops in favor of automated enforcement.
…99) See number 1 again.
Don
what people dont realize is that we are slowly giving up our rights and the right to confront our accuser (officer) is important and as cameras start to document our whole society we are slowly killing the most valuable thing we have as american citizens our freedom. i think if i speed i deserve a ticket but there should be a human being to give a ticket not a machine whose only purpose is not safety but the one thing that seems to be more important in america than our freedom and that is the money that the government makes from there citizens