What A Terrorist Incident in Ancient Rome Can Teach Us – Pirates of the Mediterranean
IN the autumn of 68 B.C. the world’s only military superpower was dealt a profound psychological blow by a daring terrorist attack on its very heart. Rome’s port at Ostia was set on fire, the consular war fleet destroyed, and two prominent senators, together with their bodyguards and staff, kidnapped.
The incident, dramatic though it was, has not attracted much attention from modern historians. But history is mutable. An event that was merely a footnote five years ago has now, in our post-9/11 world, assumed a fresh and ominous significance. For in the panicky aftermath of the attack, the Roman people made decisions that set them on the path to the destruction of their Constitution, their democracy and their liberty. One cannot help wondering if history is repeating itself.
By the oldest trick in the political book — the whipping up of a panic, in which any dissenting voice could be dismissed as “soft” or even “traitorous” — powers had been ceded by the people that would never be returned. Pompey stayed in the Middle East for six years, establishing puppet regimes throughout the region, and turning himself into the richest man in the empire.
[…]
An intelligent, skeptical American would no doubt scoff at the thought that what has happened since 9/11 could presage the destruction of a centuries-old constitution; but then, I suppose, an intelligent, skeptical Roman in 68 B.C. might well have done the same.
Oh please, Uncle Dave. Stop the left wing propaganda. Its getting old.
With out a doubt. All hail Nero.
Not until you righties stop helping the terrorists by attacking our freedoms!
Oh, I would not say it was necessarily left-wing propaganda. The militia types were crying this sort of thing when Clinton was in office. Back then, the ban on assault rifles was The Begining of the End of Freedom.
Everyone seems to simultaneously claim that history repeats itself, but nothing this bad has ever happened before. US history is replete with gross violations of civil liberties, from the Revolution onward. This is one more to add to the list, that is all.
And is torture new? No. The Miranda decision did not come out of nowhere, you know. The Third Degree was once routine in police stations all over the US, and there were documented cases of tortured suspects (electrodes, suffocation, gun barrels shoved in mouths) in Chicago as late as the 80s and 90s.
Unjust imprisonment? Heck, ask any one of the tens of thousands of Japanese-Americans interned during WW2 if that is anything new. Stripping of habeas corpus is comparatively new (and it remains to be seen if it will be upheld), but it is a difference of form over substance – the Japanese Americans who had habeas corpus rights and who sued for their freedom were told “tough. there’s a war on.”
Interestingly, the fact that they felt they HAD to specifically strip habeas corpus is sign that the courts are less likely be stampeded along with them, which was not the case in the past.
With every new outrage we feign innocence and pretend this is new, but it is not. It is just the latest sorry page in a long, sorry history of violating civil liberties.
Rather than the Begining of the End, is more like we are in the Middle of the Era of the Inapt Historical Analogy.
#3: Until you transcend, i.e. stop scapgoating, you are the problem.
Oh please, Uncle Dave. Stop the links to registration pages. Its getting old.
#1 I can’t believe any right wing radical would come to this site, seeing as it is interested in the truth and debate, unlike if republicans were to debate they would lose, If we listened to them we would still have segregated schools.
Anywho there were several reasons for the fall of rome, some of which are similar to some US problems.
1. Decline in Morals and Values
a. As seen with the destruction of habeus corpus(which is a means of which detainees can seek release from unlawful imprisonment) in the new detainee torture bill.
2. Public Health
We are the center of the overweight universe, which would not help our chances of protecting ourself in the event of an actual attack within the united states.
3. Political Corruption
Easily tampered Diebold machines, Representative Foley, Jack Abramoff, Tom Delay, Lobyists, Corporate Influences etc.
4. Religion
The eventual adoption of Christianity as its only religion led to less people worried about the world they were living in. see Evangelists or Jesus Camp.
5. Army
Their army got out of hand due to the lowering of standards, if you have been reading any news articles regarding aggressive recruiters, and alleged rape of women who wanted to join army.
#1:
Said like a true neocon; mindlessly dismissing something as “leftist” or “liberal” without even giving an intelligent response.
So history repeats. Big deal. Just which part of history is it that’s being repeated?
Rome made a bad decision. It wasn’t their first and it wasn’t their last.
Every government makes bad decisions. They also make good ones, but I haven’t honestly heart anyone say “history is repeating itself” when something goes reasonably right.
And both sides can use the same arguments for the same situations, just drawing from different historical periods.
The Roman Empire never really fell. The church took it over and molded Western Civilization. Rome, to a large extent, is with us everyday.
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Andrewj:
Thanks for the name and p/w, it enabled me to see the article. Ain’t no way I’d jump through the NYT or anyone’s hoops to register.
Political Corruption
Easily tampered Diebold machines, Representative Foley, Jack Abramoff, Tom Delay, Lobyists, Corporate Influences etc.
I love how you mold this as if it was just a republican problem. Here are a few from the Dems side.
1. Most famous Boss Tweed and his Tammany Hall Machine. You talk about rigging voting machines, this guy has control of everything.
2. Daniel Rostenkowski, misuse of public funds, sentenced to jail
3. Ted Kenndey, got away with murder, literally or at the very least manslaughter. I guess his political future was more important then a person’s life – covered up by local officials
4.James A. Traficant, bribes and kickbacks, sentenced to jail.
There are lots more. Moral, get off you political high horse and stop blaming the “other team” for all the countries problems.
rctaylor,
But for the 1000 years between 500 AD and 1500AD where there was no real economy in Europe, or for that matter any civilization of any kind, and everybody reverted to tribal structures, you would be right.
Also, there is a moral difference between Dems and Republicans. The republican house leadership knew they had a peodophile in their ranks, In charge of committees for child welfare none the less, for almost a year and they did nothing about it, because they cared more about holding power than justice. I’d say the notion that there is no difference between republicans and democrats is just another right wing smear job.
Also, there was never an assault weapons ban. You were still allowed to have the weapons, you just were not allowed to equip them as a military rife. Even then, you were allowed your choice of up to two military enhancements. Those modest rules happend after a bunch of right wing extremeists shot up school yards and such, so I have no real sympathy. My hunting rifles were never in jeopardy. The guns issue is just another right wing smear job, that counts of the stupidity of right wingers.
And I could go on and on. If after the last six years you still doubt that republicans are in league with the Devil, under some sort of faustian agreement, giving them satanic preturnatural influence over the spiritually inept and vulnerable, I ask you, what is more evil than the republicans desire for torture, pedophilia and genocide? They are the definition of evil. Only the hellbound think otherwise. It is not to late to repent your sins.
Yes, Dave, we all read Digg.com too.
#13 – The real corruption problem arises whenever one party gains too much power, like the Republicans have today. When was the last time we were treated to no-holds-barred political war against vote recounts, or election oversight, or to legal maneuvering to block electoral count-auditing the way Diebold machine advocates have done? For a corrupted electoral process, Ohio is the best modern model, and the reason is its one-party rule. Boss Tweed? Gimme a break. That was SO century-before-last.
“If we listened to them we would still have segregated schools.”
Fuck. Just fuck. How fucking stupid are today’s “progressives” that they don’t know the history of the goddamned civil rights movement?
“You were still allowed to have the weapons, you just were not allowed to equip them as a military rife. ”
You were not allowed to make cosmetic changes that would emulate the look of a military rifle. The basic functionality of a pre-ban AR15 and a post-ban AR-15 was exactly the same. All the changes save for magazine size were cosmetic.
In fact, the fucntionality of your consumer-grade AR-15 and your average .308 are mechanically identical. One pull, one bullet. .308’s probably more deadly…and yet never fell under any ban. Odd, that.
Malren,
Yes the progressive always fail to incude that the racist democrats left and formed the dixiecrats, who merged with the Republican party shortly after. Much the same way that the Democrats are now ousting Republicans, like Joe Lieberman from our party. Yes, Democrats would rather lose than be in league with people under satanic influence.
Greg, you aren’t doing your research. You’re parroting bullshit you heard from someone with whom you agree politically.
Stop using Wikipedia as a primary source. Go read something that used a tree to get made. Try ones written before the American political landscape went to hell in a handbasket.
Malren,
I was there, please don’t pretend to tell me what really happened.
Also, the “cosmetic” changes to assault rifles were feature like:
From Wikipedia:
* Folding or telescoping stock
* Conspicuous pistol grip
* Bayonet mount
* Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
* Grenade launcher lug
Those strike me as a little more substantial than “cosmetic”, and you were allowed to have up to two of those features.
I have to echo Malren here…..if you people have no clue what happened in Civil Rights battle of the 40’s and the 50’s, how the hell can you make claims that are nothing more than wishful thinking.
It always amazes me that everyone thinks the Democrats are some kind of saints in this issue, when they were the chief reason for jim crow laws and lynchings into the 50’s in this country. People tend to forget that the Black vote was solid Republican until the Depression and took 20 years of ass kissing for them to finally go Democratic. It wasn’t some saintly Democratic President that ordered school desegration, it was a Conservative court under a progressive Republican that did that…..enforced by a Republican President. The Civil Rights acts of the 60’s were passed only because many Republicans voted for them, while an almost majority of the Dems. voted against them. Some of you should read history before engaging in serious claims of it repeating itself.
There is nothing to compare here…..whoever wrote the article above talks about a Roman democracy and constitution….there were no such things, EVER, in Rome. Rome was ruled by an Oligarchy of the wealthy and priveldged and only called itself a Republic. Pompey was just the lates in a series of citizen dictators appointed by the Roman Senate. There were no freedoms to lose, because there WERE no freedoms. You had freedoms IF you were an aristocrat, otherwise it was slavery or peasentry for the vast majority.
I also get tired of hearing about the devil Republicans and the Saintly Democrats…….they are the same, they are both prone to crookedness and scandle when they have power. The only reason we hear of all the Republican’s antics is because the Democrats are out of power…..when they were the Kings of the Hill they were just as bad as the Republicans, and they will be again if they manage not to blow their best chance at a power return in 5 weeks.
#16…..the last time before this time was the last time the Democrats had all the power. You tend to forget that the Dems had the House for 45 solid years before 1994 and the Senate for most of that period as well….with a few 2 year gaps when the Republicans managed to grab the Senate a couple times.
There really are good people, with good intentions in all of our political parties and spectrums, unfortunatly we only ever hear of the showboaters or crooks in the news……the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
#23 – That’s my point, exactly. I was no fan of Mayor Daley’s mishandling of power in Chicago, 1968. It seems like one-party rule ALWAYS manifests with abuses of power. And probably with corruption. But somehow the Republicans seem to have managed to take the local corruptions of Democrat-run cities to an unprecedented national scale. But my point was that it isn’t the party, it’s the one-party rule that generates the damage to our supposedly idealized processes. What seems new to me is the unremitting attacks on the basic rights that the founders held so important that they separated them from the process document as separately enumerated amendments? The Republicans nowadays seem to want to glue on amendment after amendment, every one of them on hot-button divisive issues. Some of the issues are all but manufactured out of nothing, such as that stupid flag-burning amendment. That drive to change our basic rights by so-called “conservatives” is new. It seems intended to keep people at each other’s throats, not to reach accommodations. And that is dangerous to our democracy or republic or plutocracy or wahtever you want to call our method of government.
This happened with germany too when they invaded polland.
Dont forget that either.
And there is many more disturbing simularities.
And over 5 centuries later Rome fell…
Classics should be a mandatory first year university course for everyone. Of course these days we call it Greek and Roman Studies because Classics implies that Rome and Greece were more advanced than others. They were but we don’t dare say it.
I’m a moderate Republican, but I agree that the parallels between ancient Rome and the current American government are scary :-/
Something that can be learned from the Romans is that you can subject others to your will. but sooner or later those folks will learn by example, kick your ass back home, make themselves the organ grinder and you the monkey. If we don’t find a way to make other nations see us a partner and not a potential enemy there isn’t much of a chance that we will succeed where the Romans failed. The same goes for domestic politics, the sooner Democrats and Republicans realize it isn’t about beating the other guy, it’s about finding a way for both to win before we killing each other, the better chance we have to not end up holding the monkey cup.
I put that in the same category as
‘Shakespeare’, as re-written by Barbara Streisand (Snopes)
Malren
Why don’t you expound upon your knowledge of the civil rights movement for us? You see I think you are the one that is a little confused about the definition of Democrat and Republican and how those definitions applied at that period in our history. Do you think the current Republican Party is the same philosophically as the Republican party of Lincoln? For that matter do you even think the current Republican party reflects The Goldwater Republicans? You my friend are the one that needs to rethink the evidence on which you base your position.