IEEE-USA: Building Careers & Shaping Public Policy — So all the BS about “can’t find Americans who want these jobs” and the other crapola delivered by the CEO’s of America was pure BS and they knew it. I wouldn’t mind all this if those same CEO’s were not lining their pockets in the process.
WASHINGTON (6 September 2006) — U.S. industry spokespeople say repeatedly that H-1B visa holders are paid the same wages as similarly qualified American citizens. Numerous studies and reports, however, have found this to be untrue.
Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) Vice President Phiroz Vandrevala even admitted that his company enjoys a competitive advantage because of its extensive use of foreign workers in the United States on H-1B and L-1 visas.
“Our wage per employee is 20-25 percent lesser than US wage for a similar employee,” Vandrevala said. “Typically, for a TCS employee with five years experience, the annual cost to the company is $60,000-70,000, while a local American employee might cost $80,000-100,000. This (labour arbitrage) is a fact of doing work onsite. It’s a fact that Indian IT companies have an advantage here and there’s nothing wrong in that. … The issue is that of getting workers in the U.S. on wages far lower than local wage rate.” (“U.S. visas are not a TCS-specific issue,” Businessworld (India) magazine, June 2003)
IEEE-USA President Ralph W. Wyndrum, Jr. said proposals now before Congress to raise the H-1B visa cap should be scrapped until significant workforce protections for U.S. and H-1B employees are instituted.
Businesses not exactly honest…
News at 11:00
This is news? Well, I guess it is if you are a in the Congress or Senate and have your head in the sand.
Duh. I mean really, DUH!
My cousin’s husband (both are Canadians) working for the #3 drink company (#1 Coke, #2 Pepsi) is living this very problem.
With four kids to raise, he has 25% lower salary than his coworkers that are American. He was working in Toronto, and the #3 transferred him State side.
Not a low-level job, this is like just below VP type of job. The #3 says he’s getting the same salary + benefits, because the necessary legal fees are factored into the salary + benefits calc.
Go figure.
I always thought it was mcdonalds that they were referring to when they said “job americans dont want to do”, not the high paying white collar jobs like these. Its like cooking the employer books so you can hire someone cheaper. This should be against the law and the loops holes should be sown up.
“With four kids to raise…”
Whats that supposed to mean? That he should be privileged with more wages than someone who decides not to have kids? People that prefix statements with: “I have blah blah number of kids…” as though it were some type of qualifing status to exclusive benefits need to f— off.
He’s irresponsible for having kids without being able to afford them.
RE: post #6
“…He’s irresponsible for having kids without being able to afford them.”
I suspect they were living in Toronto when they had the kids and were able to afford them on his salary while in Toronto.
I believe the point of the post is: The company was saying “If you want to keep your job, you’ll move. Cost of living too high in the new place? Too bad.”
Personally I would have told them exactly what they could do with the job, but I am not him and have no idea what his circumstances are.
End the H1Bs and the other loopholes as soon as possible.
It’s for your own good, trust me.
I live near an Intel plant that ONLY hires H1Bs. We have not one, but two video stores that carry only “Bollywood” videos from India. We have five or six Indian restaurants. In the evenings we can observe entire Indian (I have to wonder how grandma and grandpa are legally in this country) families strolling around the neighborhood with the women wearing Indian saris. I work around HiB people in high tech and while I am using Indians as an example because they are the most prevalent, there are also a small amount of H1Bs from Europe as well. All taking jobs at much lower wages than their American counterparts. It would be somewhat tolerable if more than 50% of them could speak English and not the sing-song dialect they think is English. Currenlty I started a contract where my co-worker is from China. He speaks Mandarin, not English. I speak English not Mandarin. Big fun! Send them all home or better yet send them to Mexico.
RE: post #7
Off topic, i know. But it just rubs me the wrong way when the impression is given that something like this is more of a tragedy because “he had blah blah kids”. Its not more of a tragedy. End child worship.
Could I hijack this thread a second, since this was said… “He’s irresponsible for having kids without being able to afford them.”…?
Like I’d ever wait for permission to hijack a thread 🙂
This remark is stupid on many levels, but it reminds me how often I hear far right conservatives harp about personal responsibility and no matter how you boil it, it always reduces to “fuck the poor”.
Who opposes abortion? Who opposes sex education in schools? Who blathers on about how precious all life is and how all children are perfect gifts from God? Could the answer be… Far Right Conservatives? Usually, it is.
You don’t get to have it both ways… You don’t get to block access to the tools that society needs to make responsible decisions, promote your bullshit “Culture of Life” dogma, go on endlessly about the importance of family and children, then accuse society of being irresponsible when they have kids.
And when you utter the phrase “personal responsibility” what you really mean is, “yes, I know I had a hand in creating the problems, but I got a nice house, a Lexus, an in-ground pool, and a 90 inch plasma… So screw you and your problems.”
Sorry… Just had to make that comment. Please get back to the discussion at hand….
Capitalism is based on a Ponzi Scheme. If you’re at the top you make money. If you’re at the bottom, well… you’re at the bottom. But, having lived the good life for a while I can proudly say I am moving backwards in “success”: 8’x11′ living space with no toilet in a building filled with illegal immigrants, no car, no posessions, no girlfriend, no life (except for this blog– thanks, John, it’s something), no savings ($12 to my name right now) and a whole city of people who are strangers. But, at least, I’ve got my health. Hey, man, it’s Friday night– I’m going out for a couple of hotdogs. See you later.
Well, that was the reasoning a few years ago – the H1B workers were plentiful and worked cheaper. Today they add “and the foreign workers are far better educated.” The implication is not that Americans don’t want these jobs, but Americans can’t do these jobs. Given the current state of public education, you might be able to make this argument. However, like many other friend and acquaintances, I am advising my children and their friends to stay out of hi-tech, not because the money and challenges aren’t there, but because the security isn’t there. Our current economic and social climate is discouraging the notion of security in work.
It’s time to change this climate. Globalization shouldn’t mean you can kiss your career goodbye once China or India get into the game. All we have to do is change our laws, our attitudes and get off this kick of self-loathing that seems to be at the heart of it all. Vote for politicians that believe in America, not Global Enterprise only.
John, why do you say it’s a lie? You’ve been posting that Americans are too stupid to do these jobs. Now you say these jobs could be filled. Stop your Lou Dobbs imitation, and tell us which of your posts is right.
By the way, if you shut out these H-1Bs, you may just send the whole shop overseas.
The recent arguments I have PERSONALLY heard from managers in large companies where the Indian companies have flown them over to see call centers is how poor the people are in in India and how “engaged” they are and how much these jobs mean to them.
Which, to me, says they don’t care that American citizens LOSING their jobs and becoming POOR doesn’t concern them.
Now, they know they can get qualified Americans to do the work, but because IT salaries skyrocked during the lead up to Y2K, American IT workers got used to earning high salaries.
Now, Wall St. is hammering companies to lower labor costs. The easiest way to do it? Hire cheap immigrant labor, or ship the entire operation overseas. Many companies are learning that the “cheap labor” means poor quality. Not all offshore programming or “back office” labor inititatives are failures, but MANY of them are!
So, I guess this means I could hire about 5 H1B’s to run the front of my computer store, pay them, ummm, $2 an hour and everything is okay, right? I mean, no Americans want to work for $2 an hour. Or, let’s say I need 4 more computer techs to do service work. So, I can hire some H1B’s for, umm, $5 an hour and say, well no Americans wanted this job. So are these really JOBS Americans don’t want, or PAY Americans don’t want? I say, pass and enforce legislation that would stifle all of this stupidity. No more outsourcing overseas, no more H1B’s getting low wages, and no more corporations getting let off doing this nonsense. Small businesses would get shut down tomorrow if they were caught doing this.
This is another one of those programs that started out with good intentions. Somehow, it all got twisted out of shape and is now abused. Fix the loop holes? Not while the neo-cons rule Washington and welcome the cheap foreign labor of all stripes.
I have to say that I agree with all of you. We should kick all the foreign workers out of the country. Make the companies hire American employees. And give em all raises too. The companies who blabber on about wanting to make a profit are evil and just out to get the American poor. While we’re at it we should ban foreign imports as well. They’re just another example of evil corporations using cheap labor to drive down costs. And even if it does cost companies six times as much to make clothes and tv’s and cars in America with American workers, they better not try to raise the prices on any of my stuff.
Competition and free trade bad. Protectionism good.
While we’re at it, let’s kick the damn Mexicans out.
If there was a ready supply of skilled American labor that could do this work then there wouldn’t be an issue. The catch is that, just like the void created that hispanics fill (which we’re better for), there’s a void that Indian labor is filling. The fact they’ll do it for less isnt the reason they’re here, because an excess of American labor that could do the work would eliminate the need for the H1B labor to begin with (supply and demand).
I’m all for America first: It’s a shame some of you libs don’t apply this logic more often (including those of you who think you could hijack a thread). But to start knocking Indians because they’re more able to compete for a job is just plain pathetic.
My issue is with the fact that Corp. America is having to deal with Wall St. dictating that companies off shore or outsource labor to the “lowest bidder”.
I have personally seen where these companies promise one thing and deliver much less. Then we are being racist because we expect excellent work for the wages that no American programmer would work for.
I would not encourage the current crop of high school students to attempt to get into programming in college. Corporate America has said that there is no future in it for US Citizens.
Reactionaries, some of you! The point is NOT to kick out foreign workers. Rather, lets not make this a race to the bottom of the barrel; lowest prices, lowest wages, minimalist qualifications, maximum profits. Rather I would like to see India build up its economy, and China build up theirs, so that an Indian worker or a Chinese worker can have a good life and career in their own countries. Let’s export the American dream, not the American economy. Stable economies are achieved through balances, which are maintained by careful planning and judicious regulation, none of which we have right now.
Comment #8 with it’s attacks on the Indian way of dress and social gatherings is just uncalled for and totally out of scope for this discussion. People of all ethnic persuasions gather , rent movies and start businesses in the US. Their money is just as green as yours, so please stop giving rednecks a good name. Your post makes em sound liberal.
The issue is jobs. If the US govt didn’t allow it and companies didn’t hire H1_B visa holders you wouldn’t have a problem, right? or would you? Where’s your tirade about everything being made in China and racist comments about them? Ever looked at all the electronics you buy? Just because you don’t see them does not mean that they don’t impact the US job market. They do compete and work hard. so I guess you’ll want to dump on them as well.
I am not an H1-B visa holder but am of Indian origin. IT is no longer as fun as it used to be. American workers , and I include myself ,are basically undercut. Te corporations are using cheaper labor to keep their costs down and the government, that whe buy the way we voted in, sees nothing wrong in that.. So please… rant about the white guys running most corporations and at our president and not about the Indian folks you see. The guys that cause your heartache probably look like you – unless you don’t happen to be caucasian.
American corporations don;’t want to pay the wages that competition in this market, without cheaper global, would entail.
The worst thing is that american corporations are no longer willing to invest in Americans to train and develop them… it’s cheaper to contract and layoff.. One day Chinese or even European labor might surpass Indian labor in cheapness… are you going to slur those folks as well? or will it be ok if they look like you and dress like you?
American companies don’t want to invest in education because they fear that they will train workers who will go elsewhere.
They like to say they train their workers, but training budgets are always the first cut, or the managers state to the workers there’s no money for training, at least until the end of the year, then it’s “Hey, we got all this money to take for training that NOBODY wanted to use during the year”.
Unrealistic expectations by companies for bringing new people in also hurt the Americans who try to raise themselves up out of lower paying jobs. “Oh, we are looking for someone with 3 to 5 years experience, you just graduated from technical school, sucks to be you and have spent all the money on a technical education”
“Looks like we have to look to outsourcers or offshore for this project”.
This not about “Wall Street” insisting American companies use foreign workers or outsource. They insist that American companies make a profit TODAY.
I will not willingly support a company that outsources. Why should any American? The quality of service is inevitable worse. Communications continually get sloppy and translation issues abound.
H1Bs? You get what you pay for. Outside of a few top management people promoted to the American division, I am unaware of the need to import any employee. Unless, of course, you don’t want to pay the going wage.
#12
> Capitalism is based on a Ponzi Scheme.
Only someone that is completely ignorant of economics would make such a ridiculous statement. Is it a surprise that the nations that embrass some form of capitalism have the highest standard of living?
Obviously, we need minimum wage for high tech workers.
I notice many of you want to eliminate outsourcing and foreign workers in the US. It sounds nice. Our companies are competing with foreign companies that don’t work under the same rules.
Lets say Ford made all it’s parts and assembled all it’s vehicles in the US using only US workers. When China builds it’s car and sells it in the US for half of what the American car is sold for do you really think most people are going to pay the premium for the American built car? I’d guess not.
#19 – For the right…Comment by James Hill — 9/22/2006 @ 7:59 pm
While we’re at it, let’s kick the damn Mexicans out.
You really don’t need to study Freud to realize that there might be a reason that you, poster boy of the right wing, used the word “Mexicans” rather than “illegal aliens”
I shall pre-emptively retract the personal implication just made, but even though Freud also said that sometimes a cigar is a cigar, there is ample historical evidence that when the right slips up, they don’t mean “cigar”.
If there was a ready supply of skilled American labor that could do this work then there wouldn’t be an issue.
There is and its not.
The catch is that, just like the void created that hispanics fill (which we’re better for), there’s a void that Indian labor is filling. The fact they’ll do it for less isnt the reason they’re here,
Yes it is, and of course it is. I agree that we are better off to a certain degree by the presense of illegal aliens (who are not exclusively hispanic). I won’t presume to know why you think we are better off, but I’m certain than my reasons are different from the rich, white, and powerful mainstays of the American right wing. After all, I don’t hire “Mexicans” to manicure my lawn, clean my house, or pick my crops.
because an excess of American labor that could do the work would eliminate the need for the H1B labor to begin with (supply and demand).
Why? Why would an American corporation demonstrate any concern now for the well being of Americans when they have historically demonstrated nothing but the most callous disregard for the well being of the American citizenry? There is a loophole that allows a company to decrease the capital outlay for human resources and that translates into millions more in profit on top of the millions in profit they already receive. These companies serve exactly one master… rich fat stockholders, and that doesn’t mean the middle class guy who started day trading back when day trading was fun and owns 500 shares of Intel. That means the guys who own significant blocks that have real voting impact at the semi-annual meeting.
I’m all for America first: It’s a shame some of you libs don’t apply this logic more often (including those of you who think you could hijack a thread). But to start knocking Indians because they’re more able to compete for a job is just plain pathetic.
I really should let the “you libs” jibe slide. You are just reacting to what we said and you conservatives which is a response tio what you said about… well, you see where that goes…
However, you don’t get to call liberals both stupid and racsist in the same paragraph in which you issue and outright lie. I agree that the less serious voices in the public dialog do knock Indians, from every side of the debate, but Indians are not holding these jobs because they were better able to compete with Americans. I grant they are competent and qualified, but USA Inc. employs them because they are cheaper.
#23, Raj the programmer
I thought about your reaction to post #8 for awhile. Although I see your point, I don’t agree. Immigrants to this country should try to assimilate. Not that there is anything wrong about their current culture, but because this is America. You asked and wanted to come here to be part of our culture. America didn’t ask you to import your culture.
Sure it does. That’s why schools and universities push multiculturalism, melting pot, etc.
I guess we should just shut down Taco Bell, Olive Garden, and Panda Express while we’re at it. Oh, and also PIzza HUt, DOminos, and Papa John’s.