DeVos backs intelligent design in class – 09/21/06 – The Detroit News Online — These jokers cannot even keep up with Kansas on this issue. I knew Michigan was backwards, but this backwards? No wonder our auto industry is in a shambles.
Republican gubernatorial candidate Dick DeVos says he supports giving local school districts the option of teaching the theory of intelligent design in science classes as an alternative to evolution.
Intelligent design, the belief that the complexity of life is evidence of an intelligent cause behind it, for years has been a source of debate in courtrooms and among some who say it deserves a place in science classrooms and those who contend that it’s thinly veiled creationism.
“I would like to see the ideas of intelligent design that many scientists are now suggesting is a very viable alternative theory,” DeVos told the Associated Press during a taped telephone interview on education. “That theory and others that would be considered credible would expose our students to more ideas, not less.”
Apparently the Michigan State School Board has also delayed approving the science curriculum until Creationism is included. Link here.
What’s this all about? You guessed it. Evolution, again. The delay was requested by the chairs of the House and Senate Education Committees to placate state Reps. Jack Hoogendyk, R-Portage, and John Moolenaar, R-Midland.
They want language jammed into the standards that would legitimize teaching creationism and so-called “intelligent design.”
ID is not an alternative to evolution. Would anyone claim that fairy tales were an alternative to the works of Newton or Einstein? I think not. The problem with teaching so called alternatives in science is that science education suffers. Many high schoolers can not tell the difference between viruses and bacteria. That is why many people try to fight the flu (virus) with antibiotics (kills bacteria). The watered down science in schools is bad enough and adding religion will not help the situation.
If the people arguing against evolution haven’t done so already, I suggest they read some good science books about evolution. If they can not understand those books then try reading up on chemistry, biology, genetics and zoology. The experiements and data in those fields back up the theory of evolution.
What is interesting is that those pushing ID are not pushing it in the science community but in the political and public arena. If ID was truly an alternative to evolution then these ID pushers would have started their push in the science community first. ID is nothing more than a political front to decay the science and technology education in the USA.
If you want to be ignorant of the world, believe in ID but if you want to be educated then study science.
So, is he saying that the universe is like a computer game?
Oh, my Intelligent Designer, we’re SIMS!
Oh, BTW… I didn’t notice this, but we’re ALL Intermediate Forms.
J/P=?
Evolution is a fact. Even Michael Behe will tell you that. It’s “Evolution by Natural Selection” that gives Creationist heartache. The mechanism of evolution is disputed. But they don’t seem to understand the difference.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
Science is not supposed to be fair (teach both and let the children decide). It’s not a popularity contest. It does not give a s**t if you like the answer or not. There is enough pseudo science on TV. Let’s keep it out of the classrooms, thank you.
TB, an answer to your questions:
How did the complex systems of organs come about?
Evolution. That’s sort of the point. For example – the bacterial flagellum or the blood clotting process – both have been fully explained by Evolution in clear, concise, steps.
Why does it seem like most of the major jumps in evolution happened in a relatively short time period?
It doesn’t. I don’t know where you got that idea from, but it’s wrong. Once something changes, and it works very well, then it will usually catch on fast. That however is not Evolution, that is Natural Selection, and they are two different things.
@35, Gregory
Evolution does occur rapidly in some cases. Like the Cambrian Explosion. See Eldredge and Gould’s theory of Punctuated Equilibrium as well for an theory of why this occurs.
>But in the long run, future generations of Michigan natives
will be living somewhere else. Wyoming is doing very well thanks to Michigan.
What is interesting is that those pushing ID are not pushing it in the science community but in the political and public arena. If ID was truly an alternative to evolution then these ID pushers would have started their push in the science community first. ID is nothing more than a political front to decay the science and technology education in the USA.
…
Comment by bac — 9/21/2006 @ 9:17 am
An extremely well put point.
Living south of Michigan, I can honestly say that the majority I have ever met are very good folk. Maybe I was lucky enough to have met the intelligent ones, but they are good people. Why Granholm is considered a poor politician is beyond me, She is saddled with a Republican legislature that is purposely on a collision course to scuttle her aims.
What is not mentioned is DeVos breaking Canadian tax laws a few years ago. As I recall, there were a few forged documents used. Is that the kind of “business” man you want running your state?
#28 – Evolutionists howl when anyone suggests the “theory” is so full of holes it requires as much or more faith than the intelligent design theories. Talk about a “religious tautology”– the evolution tautology is more intolerant of conversation than the intelligent design one. Evolutionists shout down any alternatives with the same derision and ridicule that you accuse Ann Coulter of…
Comment by TB — 9/21/2006 @ 8:14 am
Bullshit. Evolutionists howl because thumpers don’t know what the word “theory” even means. And it seems from the above that you really aren’t all that sure what “tautology” means either.
I have no idea what the “alternative” theory is to compete with evolution, if there is one… But “Intelligent Design” isn’t it.
ID is not a theory to explain the origin of life. (side note: it really isn’t very intelligent either) Let’s call it what it is… Southern Baptist (and similar fundie stripe) doubletalk to mask the fact that they are talking about Creationism and seeking a backdoor to sneek a theocratic agenda into the schools.
You guys want Biblical law. It’s been established. Your nutball leaders have said it and printed it in your nutball fundraising letters. You have no respect for our secular society and no respect for individual freedoms. You want to impose a moral agenda on everyone.
Some say ID should get time in philosophy or comparative religion courses. ID should get no such respect. ID belongs in a political science class under the heading of propaganda.
Fear your own God. Leave the science to your intellectual superiors.
It’s ironic how much the ID/evolution debate parallels the debate between uniformitarianism and creationism in the 19th century. I doubt in today’s science classrooms you’d find dispute that the earth is billions of years old, but this was the subject of significant contention a century ago. It seems whenever scientific facts conflict with religious superstition, there will always be people who feel a need to defend their religion in the classroom. I have an idea–Let’s keep Biology class to strictly scientific facts, and leave ID for Sunday school.
Bong Pipe Nation continues to amaze the rapidly shrinking intelligent populance of the world with the nomination of yet another superstitious idiot.
#41 the problem is that there ARE people who believe that the earth is only a few thousand years old. No really, there are. I have met them. I do agree with the suggestion that ID be taught in a political propaganda class along with Gueoring’s propaganda techniques. There really isn’t too much difference.
Don’t you mean Goebbels?
#39
I believe that was Richard DeVos Sr., but Dick sure benefitted from the Amway scheme. Quite a few of the MLM companies are founded by religious people… not relly surprising since they got a good network of gullible people who are more than willing to buy into their scams.
I’m not only from Michigan, I’m right across the street from the 60th MI House district of the one and only Jack Hoogendyk, the Rick Santorum of Michigan. DeVos and Hoogendyk are two of a kind–Calvinist, ultra-right-wing religious zealots doing the work of their god in trying to force their christianity, homophobia and xenophobia down everyone’s throats. Jack Hoogendy’s re-election campaign slogan is–no joke–“JACK FOR MICHIGAN.” It’s what he does; it’s what you get. I offered the idea of duplicating the slogan for DeVos, i.e., “DICK FOR MICHIGAN,” but Hoogendyk’s own flying monkeys thought it was ridiculous. Go check this jackass out… http://www.jackformichigan.com. Michigan isn’t itself backward, but we do have a loud constituency of wing nuts.
#46, I can relate. Indiana has a Governor who’s campaign slogan was Our Man Mitch. Well the new campaign is to Ditch Mitch. Two years left until we can ditch the a**hole.
Not having a dog in this fight…..the latest polls by Rassmusion and Sabato show Granholmn even or behind this guy. She is considered the most in danger Democratic gov. in the country.
They both have this race as a toss up.
LOL, They just don’t get it. You people that only insist on evolution, that is. You are even so afraid that your wrong that you won’t even let a truth (not theory) of ID come into the classroom, because your afraid it will prove yours wrong! It makes so much sense, compared to your wacked out theory of evolution only. Think about it, its way crazier to believe in bigbang, or coming from monkeys lol, then ID. SIMPLE FORMULA FOR GENIUSES ONLY: Painting=Painter, Building=Builder, Creation=Creator…can’t you see? Simple! Unfortunately, professing to be WISE, they became fools. The cross is foolishness to those that are perishing…Sad. Oh well, if this gets posted, Im sure you will bash me too! Go ahead…lol. I won’t be back here to bother wasting my time to read your silly comments. For intelligence check out: http://www.wayofthemaster.com
My take on Devos is this: Michigan has been losing jobs to foreign competition for decades but know we are finally feeling it. Devos like s to blame Granholm for the current status of Michigans economy . Remember when she took office from the so called great REPUBLICAN gov. Engler. She was left with a 4 billion dollar defecit. to start with. Guess who gets to hold the tax bill for that the people of Michigan. Granholm was not reponsible for that even though the republican party likes you to think that. Devos just like Engler has only one agenda and that is to keep his powerful friends and himself right where they are today “RICH and POWERFUL”. Even President Bush does like Devos and my personal opinion about Devos is that this is a stepping stone for Presidency.
“Painting=Painter, Building=Builder, Creation=Creator…can’t you see?”
Yes I can see. Sight=Eyes
You’ve used examples that don’t support your position.
A painting is a creation by a MAN, the creator.
A building is a creation by a MAN, the creator.
Creation is a… care to fill in the blanks and show how it applies?
Michigan Gubitorial race is full of SPINACH, stick that in your bible and be a mean green SPINACH MACHINE, Apple(s) are out.
I am amazed how here in America we are always so concerned with everyone else’s beliefs and not stepping on anyones toes yet, we teach in our public schools a thought, contrary to the beliefs on which our nation was based and which is not supported by everyone, and no one says anything. When someone mentions teaching another theory, people think we are “backwards” here in Michigan. Intelligent Design, umm why do you think they call it intelligent? I would love for you to conduct a poll. How many people would like to see their children taught that there is more than one theory for the creation of man? If that means we are backwards, than so be it. The majority of people with the ability to write editorials that will reach many people are not always right and should not be the voice of the people!
If the issue is whether Intelligent Design should be taught along side evolution, then I say neither should be taught as a science in actual sense of the word. Both require faith to believe their theory will be proven true in the end.
Wikipedia defines: Science in the broadest sense refers to any system of knowledge attained by verifiable means.
Keep in mind there is a difference between creationism and ID. Biblical creationism looks at science through the lens of Genesis, whereas ID draws its logical inferences about our origins from scientific discoveries without any such filter. It is actually the scientific discoveries that have led many scientists, such as Einstein, to believe in a super-intelligence behind the universe.
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” –A. Einstein
Essentially it takes as much faith to try and disprove the existence of God as it does to try and prove He does exist. (Does believing that God spoke the universe in to being really sound any more far fetched than first there was nothing and then it exploded?) Therefore I think Evolution is as a much a religion as Christianity, Islam or Judaism are. Since there weren’t any scientist around at the big bang or the evolution of monkey to man, it will always be theory and require faith. There is considerable evidence by scientists that support (not prove) biblical creation accounts. The fossil record supports a world-wide flood more so than it supports evolution. There are billions of dead things all over the earth fossilized as if by some cataclysmic event. Science will never prove the biblical flood to be true no more than it will disprove it.
Another interesting Darwin quote, “The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an improved theory, is it then a science or faith?”
Also, someone compared ID to Nazism…consider this Darwin quote “In the survival of favored individuals and races, during the constantly-recurring struggle for existence, we see a powerful and ever-acting form of selection. ” and you realize that the Nazis were evolutionists who believed in the survival of the fittest to justify their genocide not religious zealots.
Einstein gives us two choices to approach this question: “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.” –A. Einstein.
I think either both theories should be taught in public schools (we all pay taxes) or neither should.
Yes I can see. Sight=Eyes
You’ve used examples that don’t support your position.
A painting is a creation by a MAN, the creator.
A building is a creation by a MAN, the creator.
Creation is a… care to fill in the blanks and show how it applies?
Yes, I will fill in the blanks, simple. You answered the first 2 correctly…good job! I, am surprised you missed the last one…though! Creation is a creation by God, the Creator. Your minds want to argue with you, but your conscience, the Bible says has God’s law (10 commandments) written on it. That is why your conscience knows right from wrong. You can over and over again not listen to your conscience, and eventually not hear it, but you have to admit, you do, or at one time knew that it was wrong to lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, etc. You may say well, it was human law (govt.) that made me aware of these being wrong, and that is why I feel it’s wrong.
NO, it wasn’t, you were born with God’s law in your heart. Why did you used to feel guilty about looking at pornography, and lusting, or cheating, etc. Jesus said that whosoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already with her in his heart….which is almost always the beginnings of committing the actual act.
We are guilty before a Holy and Just God when it comes to our judgment day before Him, and He judges us on the 10 commandments. See all of us are guilty. If you ever told a lie, you are guilty! If you ever stole, you are guilty! Etc…
You say, but if there is a God, I thought He is Good, loving and forgiving?
Answer…God is good! If you were in a courthouse, and a child rapist and murderer were before the Judge, and the guy was guilty for sure of raping and killing a 3 year old, would that judge be a “good” judge, if the guy asked the judge to forgive him and let him go, and the judge did? NO! There would have to be justice for the crime! A price would have to be paid for the crime this guy did! Just “asking” for forgiveness is not enough. If the Judge let him go without paying for his crime, that Judge should be fired!
It is the same with God, God cannot let crime or sin go unpunished. From the smallest to the least, it is still “SIN” to a Holy and Perfect God, and God cannot stand SIN!
What does that mean? Answer…God will punish all sinners after judgment by sending them into “Hell” for eternity.
Wait, but all of us have sinned!?
Answer…Your right, all of us have broken God’s Law, and are guilty before Him!
So what do we do?
Answer…back to the courthouse. A guilty man of breaking the law is before a judge. The guy is guilty for sure of theft charges, and his fine for the crime he committed is $50,000 dollars, which the guy can not pay! The judge is just about to put the man in prison, until he pays his fine, when all of a sudden, a man jumps up in the courthouse, and says whatever that mans fine is, I will pay it for him in full!
Now if the guilty man accepts the free gift from the One who is willing to pay the fine for the guilty man to go free, then the judge can let him go! Why? Because the fine has been paid, the debt has been paid in the eyes of the court, and the man is no longer in debted to the judge.
You see God is so good, that He chose to send His Son Jesus to pay the price for our sin. The price for our sin was death. Jesus went to the cross and took our death sentence upon Himself, so that we wouldn’t have too! Then the extra good news is that He rose from the dead 3 days later with 500 eye witnesses seeing Him (how many eyewitnesses in a court room today does it take to convict, or set someone free? answer=1), and He defeated death! He paid our fine in full! Now, IF we believe and accept His free gift, we will not have to goto prison (Hell), and we will feel so much graditude for what He did for us, that we will WANT to follow Him, and obey Him. And when we sin, we will feel convicted, and we will want to repent, and turn back to God and obey Him.
That is part of the evidence of having truly accepted and believed in the free gift that God has sent…His Son Jesus.
BACK TO THE VERY FIRST TOP ANSWER:
Everything we see has a creator, and has been intelligently designed by a creator. From the painting, to the building, to the automobile, to the whole of creation itself! Everything has a creator! Buildings have a builder, Paintings have a painter, and Creation has a Creator…God is that creator, or intelligent designer!
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life!
Rom 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved…
P.S. Sorry I said I wouldn’t be back to read about you guys bashing me…Go ahead and bash me if you want, but I just want you to see the truth! I found the truth, and He set me free! Please, just seek God, read your Bible, and see for yourself in the truth of God’s Word! If the Bible is right, and you are wrong…then you have EVERYTHING to lose for eternity. If the Bible is wrong, and you are right, then you have only wasted a little time in studying it! There is nothing more important than where you will spend eternity!
http://www.WayoftheMaster.com (Kirk Cameran) Just watch the intro, and if you want you can leave. It solves the age long question about evolution or ID!
If there was intelligent design these people would never have been born.
Can you tell why the State of Mi. is trying to tax my w-2 income with the small bussines tax ? I know if my 1099 income is over a givem about I am subject to this unfair tax ,but how can they tell me my w-2 income is taxed as well? I have been fighting the state for over two years and so far I am only racking up CPA bills with no input from the state. Do you know where I can get this mess taken care of ??? upset taxe payer .
Dvoraak, maybe you should stick to computer stuff
The whole debate makes all of you sound ignorant.