I kid! I kid!
Political error or calculated move? – — This essay brings up some interesting points that need discussing. Is the Pope actually trying to start a fight? Is all this a calculated scheme? I wonder myself because for the most part I cannot see why the Pope cares what people think. He’s the Pope for cripessake. None of the Catholics are too concerned about his comments. Why are the Muslims so thin-skinned? If you look at the historical relationship of the ummah (worldwide Muslim unity) to the dhimmi (non-believers), the dhimmi cannot say anything about anything without permission and they have no rights whatsoever. The fact that the Muslims react like this to every perceived affront actually might mean that they think that they own the place and the Pope (a dhimmi) has to apologize and bow down to them. The fact that every time something like this happens a slew of dhimmis get killed in Muslim countries with no attempt to do anything about it by the local authorities. That’s because in a traditional 10th century Muslim state a Muslim can legally kill a dhimmi when they feel like it for any reason they want. Hence nuns are killed over the Pope and lots of dhimmis were killed because of the cartoon fiasco. Nobody did jack about it.
All this, of course, is exacerbated and encouraged by allowing Shar’ia law to be used as a second layer of laws in countries like Canada. Thus you end up with weird and sick “honor killings” within Western countries and the perpetrators somewhat baffled by the fuss.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel attempted to quell the storm, saying the pope’s remarks were misunderstood, but a reading of the speech in its entirety produces the opposite impression: Not only does the pope believe Islam is a violent religion spread by force, he also believes there is no room for reason within Islam, in complete contradiction to Christianity, which is based on reason. This does not look like a misunderstanding or slip of the tongue – this is apparently what the pope believes.
Now, here’s an interesting situation for you market watchers. What happens if the Pope goes to Turkey, as he plans to, and gets killed by Islamist radicals?
The speech was about violence not belonging in religion….ANY religion. It was also about the dangers of fundementilism in ANY religion being misused as a pretext for not having dialogue between religions.
I just read a wonderful piece in the London Times about Islam and violence. It basically says that Islam is insecure with it’s self and defensive because it can’t find it’s place in this world.
32….iMPROBUS…..you can like or dislike anyone, thats your right. But when someone in here once condoned assination of Bush I told them they were wrong and sick to make such remarks about any human…..well your wrong and sick as well, your why politics and relations between countries are worse than they have been for 60 years….your answer isn’t dialogue, or voting out of office or speaking out publically against the person or program, your answer is to kill them, because you don’t like them or like what they stand for….that makes you no better than the terrorists, thugs and murderers of the world.
Something all of those who always throw up what Christians did to others throughout it’s history…….the Catholic Church and all mainline Christian churches haven’t forced anyone by the sword to embrace their religion, or burned down towns, or crucified anyone, or beheaded anyone for being an infidal for quite a long time. But the Islamic fundies are doing it right now…..when do you propose they get over their past and join the world?
Hey Ari, I defend the normal mainstream Muslims. And I think they do speak against all this but are never publicized as doing so.
The hate is everywhere. I’m not spreading it. I just find all this very interesting. But to be honest I’m more fascinated by the ever feartful public fretting over everything.
Has there ever been a better reason for hating and killing each other than “my god is better than your god”?
When will people finally learn not to go to single old men for advice on their lives?
So there’s people in the muslim world who are fighting for more power, using the religious beliefs of ther muslims to motivate them to blow themselves to pieces and take some “infidels” with them.
What does christianity do, and their maximo leader above all? They themselves stand united and make sure the division line between “good christian” and “bad muslim” is obvious.
Religion is an invention of the bronze age. That’s where it does belong. It’s never been a really good idea but today, it’s truely a bad idea. Get over it, get rid of all your gods and try to live a life where you don’t fall for propaganda, religious or national or whatever.
Man, it’s about time mankind grows up.
pj
Muslim leaders around the world today rejected any comments about Islam that don’t praise it.
Representatives of Muslim countries and major Muslim groups stated that any other comments were not helpful in maintaining a peaceful relationship with Islam.
One Muslim leader said “The choice is simple: either produce balanced reports praising the peaceful religion of Islam or agents of the Mossad trying to discredit Islam will do great violence to you.”
Non Muslim world leaders called for tolerance, understanding and more prompt payment of the Jizyah in response.
20: You think you won’t be affected by the war, that’s why you condone it. Let me tell you, you have no idea how much power Muslims command in the world today. No idea. The Western world is fast asleep. If there is a war, the entire world will feel it.
25: I may not agree with your reasoning about God, but you are right about one thing. People will sacrifice far more for their religion than they would ever sacrifice for a country or political idea.
28: Ari, when will Muslims stand up to and fight the terrorists within their society? When will they do something MEANINGFUL?
33: There have been other reasons, such as “You have something that I want and I’m going to take it”. You also have a really myopic view of religion. Grow up.
Achmed Dvorak censored… the new name for this blog.
Hey John,
Millions of poor Chinese, Mexicans, Indians, etc, not a one of them a terrorists. Wake up man. It ain’t poverty.
Global Warming scares me more than anything, including John C. Dvorak.
How very interesting is it that John C. Dvorak can play with the image of the Pope, and make him look like a Muslim (or santa clause..?) and not a single Christian flips her lid… very telling indeed…
@35:
> There have been other reasons, such as “You have
> something that I want and I’m going to take it”. You
> also have a really myopic view of religion. Grow up.
hmm… let’s see. Sure there have been many wars fought over the “You have something I want”, no doubt, BUT: This is a halfway logical reasoning, something that we can agree or disagree with, something, even though it’s difficult at times, of which we can assess it’s medium and long term outcomes.
Reliigion is so wonderful for demagogues. Right at the core of the major religion today (the triangle of christianity, judaism and islam, really three branches of the same religion) is: “believe, don’t seek certainty”.
Up at the top of the pyramid of power are people who live by the “You have got something I want” but they have an easy time to (ab)use their followers.
If people cannot look at the wonders of nature and life without having to interpret some godly intent into them, well, their problem. Go ahead and use a god to explain your world. Fine. But as soon as someone comes by and tells you what God wants you to do, you should send this person away and make it very clear that noone is any closer to your god than you are.
You say I have a myopic view on religion? Well, maybe it’s because I’m on the outside, looking at them all, and believe me, I’ve been looking long and hard, and it got me very frustrated. Maybe you’re on the inside.
pj
>> a slew of dhimmis get killed in Muslim countries with no attempt to do anything about it by the local authorities.
The government of Somalia (is there one?) may not be doing much about the slayed nun but, interestingly, the Islamists have vowed to bring the killers to justice.
Somalia Islamists vow to punish nun’s killers
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=68&art_id=qw1158581703146B254
(sorry for the double post)
>> a slew of dhimmis get killed in Muslim countries with no attempt to do anything about it by the local authorities.
The pope’s speech is pretty dense stuff but I gave it a careful read.
It’s not mainly about Islam or even about religious violence… it’s about classical Greek rationality in the Christian faith.
But even if you remove the offending quote from his speech, the pope does kind of insult Islam. Well, it’s an insult of you are a rationalist.
He basically says that if you have a God who is unknowable and outside of human logic, then your God is free to be capricious and irrational; a capricious God can order religious violence.
He used Islam as an example of this.
That was his mistake, IMHO. Surely between the Crusades and the Inquisition, he could have come up with plenty of examples from his own faith tradition.
The problem with a religious war is that while the Christians and Muslims may happily slaughter each other, they’ll BOTH be delighted to slaughter us atheists and agnostics.
40: Peter, thanks for the rational response.
The first part of my comment was in response to the rhetorical question at the start of your comment. There are definitely other reasons people have to hate and kill each other, and it’s always debatable as to which is the “best” reason.
You have made a mistake in generalising other religions based on the actions of followers of the “main religion” (I do agree that they are three branches of the same thing). There is a great tradition of inquiry and research in many other religions. They don’t tell you what to believe, society and power seekers do that. It’s up to the individual to find truth.
I like your comments about nature and life, but you err in phrasing it as if your way is the only right one. It is a way of looking at it.
I guess I was a bit harsh calling your view “myopic”. As strange as it may seem, I am also on the outside looking in. I don’t follow any mainstream “religion”, but seek truth. What you should understand is that this is also the sole purpose of some world religions, to seek truth wherever it may lie.
Nirendra (44),
it’s true, I have become rather shot tempered with religious things. Two reasons: one is that, the more I look at nature and philosophy, the more the whole idea of a “god” becomes very strange, yes stupid to me.
The other one, much less personal: we’re heading down a dangerous Road as a world. Forces are creating a widening gap of misunderstanding and distrust between the “christian” world and the “muslim” world. As if it wasn’t bad enough that those two worlds are still largely separated by the fact that the former used to colonize the latter and later shaped the political landscap in the arab world to it’s own pleasing (that was, of course, not a direct fault of the religions but just happened to coincide with religious borders – the religions have probably helped it by declaring muslims less valuable as christians), now we have a pope who is allegedly amongst the smartest theologists around who doesn’t find it wrong at all to use a quote from 14th century, the high time of christian-muslim … let’s say disputes.
Just as smart as George W. Bush using the “Cruzade” word.
This is all, as we say in Germany, oil into the flames.
He (the Pope) would better make sure he sits down with a few muslim leaders in peaceful talks and starts building bridges rather than starting extra fires. But then again, what do you expect from an institution that isn’t even able to overcome the barrier between catholics and lutherans?
Personal belief is something that I have a personal belief about. I don’t need a god, don’t need it to behave ethical and don’t need it to look at the world and be happy, amazed and overwhelmed by it every time.
If, however, personal belief turns into submission to forces that have proven to be evil many times over the centuries, then it’s no longer a personal thing. That’s where I become rather irritated with people who defend an undefensible position such as being part of a large religion.
pj
#43 The problem with a religious war is that while the Christians and Muslims may happily slaughter each other, they’ll BOTH be delighted to slaughter us atheists and agnostics.
Oh come on! Are you really this paranoid of we religious people. I’ll bet you know hundreds of not thousands of religious people and how many really want you dead?
Even though I am personally quite devout in my faith, I totally respect your right to be an atheist or whatever you are. And I’m not so paranoid to think that atheists are out to kill the rest of us.
45: Peter,
It is a dangerous road we are on, but this conflict is inevitable. Two sides, intent on maintaining power, by whatever means necessary. Islam has hundreds of millions of followers, and their numbers are increasing at a frightening rate. The Christian population is decreasing. Someone is going to do something.
Surprisingly, your personal beliefs would be acceptable in Hinduism. This article is quite interesting: http://tinyurl.com/zhhln
It’s a bit heavy on the vernacular side, but still readable.
Islamic-driven terrorism, while more terrible for all of us who witnessed 9/11, is still, from a strategic perspective, like bee stings on the western societies. They hurt like mad, but so far they have not provoked us here in the west to the point of all-out war. If and when the attacks reach the tipping point, such as with the nuclear destruction of an American or European city, then watch out. The western way of total war is truly frightening. Gitmo, Abu Gharib, secret prisons, will seem silly compared to the destruction the west could wreak on Islam if really pushed to it.
After the blood-letting of the 20th century, how can we expect the 21st to be any less bloody, given our problems and the technology available for killing?
@ Nirendra Maharaj (47)
is it really inevitable? Is it really a standoff of muslims and christians? I think it’s still the wake turbulence of our imperialistic and colonialistic life style. We have forced our political and social system upon foreign people. We have, in essence, told them that their way of life is inferior to ours and we still do. That must create some tension. It just so happens that it’s along the religions divide.
The whole thing is, however, fueld by religion. Islam and Christianity are both missionairy religions, thus intrinsically aggressive. No wonder they have to clash at some point.
As far as hinduism goes, I’ve somehow never included hinduism in the ranks of the “trouble” religions. I don’t know much about it either, well, not much above what is available from normal sources. I always prefer polytheistic religions over monotheistic, as a polytheistic belief system always has numerous sources of power, is tolerant towards different thoughts and ideas whereas a monotheistic system, as we can see, is usually easier to manipulate.
@48: is that what you hope for? A flat out full blown war to settle the thing once and forever?
Man, asymmetric warefare is the nemesis of modern armies. The partisan war in WWII, Vietnam, the Russian afghan war, now Iraq or just recently Israel in Libanon. Those armies are trained and equipped to fight against other armies of the same basic type. Winning an asymmetric war means a) a huge death toll and b) total warefare against civiians. The latter is generally regarded as a war crime by the Geneva convention.
Let’s hope we can settle this whole stuff like grown-ups…
pj
#39 – How very interesting is it that John C. Dvorak can play with the image of the Pope, and make him look like a Muslim (or santa clause..?) and not a single Christian flips her lid… very telling indeed…
Comment by KenBen — 9/19/2006 @ 12:31 am
Telling of what? I’m always hearing about how the great Christian adventures into warfare are ancient history. The Crusades are long past. Well, not really. Not even a whole century has passed since the Vatican was under the sheets with Hitler in WWII. And if you want an example we are all old enough to remember, well it was Christians committing an act of genocide against Muslims in Bosnia barely a decade ago.
There is a reason we see relatively little Christian violence though, and that is that Christianity isn’t very important to Western politics. I mean sure, politicians court Xian voting blocks, and Xian leaders are certainly vocal in politics, and yes a glaze eyed thumper is the President… But the US and most of the west is ruled by a secular government and the rule of law covers all of us. In reality, there is an uneasy peace between the secular and non-secular worlds in Western society.
The extreme right wing Xians in this country are every bit as capable of being terrorists as Muslims, and some are terrorists… Operation Rescue is still alive and well and the KKK clearly identifies itself as a Christian organization, and don’t forget Fred Phelps and his travelling minstrels with their holy jihad against “fags” who are according to him, hated by God. That’s just to name three. How is the duo of Robertson and Falwell blaming lesbians and liberals for Katrina all that different from Muslim clerics blather about the infidels. Robertson, on the air, recently called for the assassination of a South American leader.
The issue is theocracy. States run by clerics are what Christian states would be (and once were) if churches made law. The irony here is that Iraq wasn’t a theocracy, and it wasn’t a hotbed of terrorism until George Bush, being the incompetent bumbling Xian Jihadist that he is, destablized the region.
What is our next target? Iran… A stable democracy with pro-western leanings that is striving to become a secular government. Who was the real problem? Afganistan… But we missed the boat by ignoring 9/11 and going off on the foolish Iraqi nation building crusade.
And note, like Muslims, the vast majority of Christians want a peaceful and prosperous life… But as long as they choose to allow churches to influence governments, they shall be subjected to violence, poverty, and misery. Three things I like to call the holy trinity.
The bosnian genocide was not motivated by Christianity – and that’s where all of your feeble arguments fall apart. There were no Christian leaders inciting riots and violence… calling for death. There hasn’t been anything like that for hundreds of years.
Today, millions are dieing in the name of Islam. There are powerful muslim leaders all over the globe inciting violence…. There simply is Christian allegory.
Do you really think Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson are equivalent to Muslim murderers? Phelps goes around and holds disgusting protests at military funerals. If the entire Muslim world just called for the assassination of George Bush, you would have a point. Pat Robertson was delving into foreign policy, not acting on religious hate. And his point was basically an anti-war one, kill the guy rather than invade the country.
After reading this discussion and others on this subject I offer these following words, although not mine, which for me echo a clear reality:
‘The world is one family of which we are all members. The key to world peace lies with every individual residing on this planet. Only when we work together as a global family not merely belonging to a particular race, religion or nation will peace and happiness prevail on this earth. Though the world has become closer through technology we have not drawn closer in our hearts. A hallmark of civilization is the open-mindedness to accept differing and diverse people. The historic purpose of religion is not to build walls of division in society but to knit people together with the thread of Universal Love. The world is like a flower. Each nation is a petal of this flower. If one petal is infested it will soon affect all the other petals and the life and beauty of the flower will be destroyed. May the light of love and peace shine within our hearts.’
Amma, 28 January 2006
http://amritapuri.org/amma/un2000/harmony.php is a speech she gave before the United Nations general assembly.
David,
very true words there. Thank you.
I may add a slightly older quote:
Imagine there’s no Heaven
It’s easy if you try
John No Hell below us
Above us only sky.
Imagine all the people
Lennon Living for today …
Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Imagine Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Songtexte Living life in peace …
You, you may say I am a dreamer
Songtext But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
Lyrics And the world will be as one.
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
Lyric No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Liedertexte Sharing all the world …
You, you may say I am a dreamer
Liedertext But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
Alle And the world will be as one
—
Sounds like a dreamer’s thoughts but – maybe it’s the only way.
The question for me is always: how does logic and understanding overcome faith in a ruthless religion or worldly leader?
pj
#52 – Do you really think Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson are equivalent to Muslim murderers?
Comment by AB CD — 9/19/2006 @ 12:21 pm
Yes… And who do you think is a murderer in the Muslim world? These clerics call for the violence. They don’t actually do the violence. And the only thing that keeps these Xian extremists out of the blood business is the law. If Phelps instructs his flock to chase down some homosexuals, wrap them to a tre with barbed wire, and pummel them with rocks and glass bottles until dead, then there would be severe repercussions.
In many Muslim countries, there isn’t too much fear of a secular force stepping in and keeping the people.
Now, it’s like saying testicular cancer is worse than blood parasites, but Phelps is definately worse than Robertson, and with Pat’s notariety, I’m sure he has a modicum of common sense. But then he is a Xian leader who called for an assassination, and I don’t give damn what context it was in. He’s a hypocrit and a miserable human being and no better than Islamic extremists.
29. Yes. By way of comparison, if the USA was driven out of North America today, Americans would be “unjusty driven from North America” notwithstanding what we did to the original inhabitants years and years ago.
Keep in mind this ia a German pope. These guys started two world wars. He’s probably packing heat! I’m sure he can take care of himself on a trip to the mideast.
30. Right on brother! George had the right idea 60 years agao.
53..David,
I would like to agree, IF…
You could take the animal outside of man.
If you could get each group to SIT DOWN, and talk and NOT shoot each other.
If you could raise the education level to AT LEAST 9th grade.
Teach them ALL truth, over anything else. Truth in history the MOST.
THEN you might have a 1% chance.
#50 – Iran – Western leanings? huh? I thought they wanted to nuke us …