God, sang the late John Lennon, is a concept. At the time, this prompted several profound questions, questions such as: “So?”, followed by: “And?” The former Beatle then launched into a primal scream of a tune in which he explained that by this concept we “measure our pain”. Big fan that I am, I was none the wiser.
Where religion is concerned, some of us are like that. Either we are too stupid – always a safe bet – or too smart to fall for catch-all explanations. You choose. Recent debates over evolution have, for example, illustrated the divide with an amusing clarity. Listening to fundamentalist American Christians attempting sophistication with this year’s “proof” of a deity’s existence can provide hours of fun.
I no longer seek to provoke those who believe, even for fun. I seem to manage that without trying. In a grudging sort of way, I actually admire the ability of the Vatican, or any mullah, or some minor Presbyterian, to insist on the sort of moral authority that long ago ceased to be plausible in the real world, at least when measured in terms of those who still believe in the tooth fairy. But why, really, do we still listen?
Power becomes a habit. The men (usually men) of God are no different from our temporal rulers. Both provide us with hokum, more or less, but both believe they are entitled to lay down their laws. What other use could power offer? John Lennon was almost right. It would have stretched the lyric somewhat, but God is a concept by which we measure our ability to listen, believe, and obey. Like it or not – and I don’t, much – that concept remains potent.
We who doubt and disbelieve, we of a Humean temper, if not a Humean intellect, cannot simply fling the odd joke against the fact of religion’s persistence. This is the nature of our world. There is a religious fanatic in the White House, another in Downing Street, a third somewhere in the hills on the Afghan-Pakistan border, a fourth in the Vatican, a fifth in the house just up the road.
If that has happened by design, can I do my own drawings?
There’s a great deal more in the whole article: from a discussion of the skepticism of Hume to establishing fiscal priorities. The John Lennon part strikes an especially responsive chord for me — though I might have used The BeeGees “I Started a Joke” since every line fits perfectly into the context of the then-current “God Is Dead” brouhaha.
WHERE did my post go???
Its better to figure God as a father figure here to guid us. But we are now old enough to care for ourselves, and WE MUST.
He is there IF and when needed, but he is the last thing we wish to have. Its our lives and we muct learn from it or FAIL. In failing as with most, its NOT always a good thing. We fail and go back, or we fail and a ‘Interstelar bypass’ runs over us, or we fail and create our OWN prison…
WE need what has been taught to us, from our father, but as children fight each other over What they THINK, we either alienate each other, or group together to get through this.
you hit something…In all the EDUCATED regions, religion has hit the skids. In many areas education isnt over 30%, and the only things they get to hear, is SOMEONE preaching ‘BELIEVE ME, BELIEVE ME’ from some Ass reading from a book, that the poor person cant read and MAKE HIS OWN decissions.
Religion should be a Advancing thing, ITs not that it changes, it dont, it Doesnt pull the shutters down either.
Its said that man should be as a child.
children explore, wonder, learn, expand, develope and go on, and on, and on…
ECA — I think we’ve had a couple of Comments end up at the wrong Post. Must be the “spirits”.
Pekuliar — since I’m the oldest of the cranky geeks, here, I can tell you the only noise elicited by superstition in front of my monitor — is the odd snicker or giggle.
this goes to show you that most “west costerners” are left winged liberals that dont believe that god is real and that he is in control. i challenge everyone that looks at this post to at least goto a church service, preferably baptist, and see if you arent moved by the power of the holy spirt to repent and accept jesus into your heart. i mean at the very least watch a service on tv, were talkin about you salvation here. if anybody here agrees with me send me an email with the subject “kudos”
The whole God/religion discussion is one of those things few people can agree on. I gave up on Roman Catholicism literally during Lent, after some idiotic pronouncement by the Pope at the time continuing to forbid birth control. I don’t miss church much at all–weddings and funerals is about it. I think I’ve been reincarnated for reasons I won’t go into here, and I doubt those reasons would convince anyone but myself.
I agree with whoever said so, that if there was a [deity] that expected us to worship said deity, it would have announced its presence in no uncertain terms. Instead, we have multiple conflicting revelations of [deity], and some sort-of religions (Buddhism, Taoism) that don’t really have a deity at all.
So much for my two cents worth–carry on!
Floyd- im very sorry that you have given up on goin to church, im gonna pray for you that you might find another church to goto, like maybe a baptist church like i found. i however totally disagrees with your last point, God has anounced himself in the begining with adam and eve, and his “terms” are right in front of us in the holy bible. All other religions are false, therefore there is no confliction only the word of the almighty God and the aforementioned false religions
Floyd,
Congrats on taking the red pill. Welcome to the real world.
“Whoever designed the universe made a right mess of religion”
Actually, the universe is working exactly as the Creator intended and the various psuedo-sophisticates posting here (including the original) denigrating God have no more idea of the overall plan than a babe on it’s mother’s knee does about it’s own future.
Just because man (given his freedom to choose for himself and having forgotten all that went before this life when he was with his Creator) has chosen at times to make up religions which has mislead many, doesn’t negate what God designed and intended. That’s part of what having choice is about.
The very fact that so many of you rail at God using the freedom of choice He has given you is proof that you are here to walk by faith and some have chosen very badly. But there’s still time to stop being mad at man-made religions and do a sincere search for the truth seeking to be guided as you do so by your Heavenly Father who does want you to return to Him.
Again, it is working just as He intended and we are all in the process of self-selecting by our choices exactly where we go and do next. Really, just go back and ask Him with a sincere heart and having faith that you will receive an answer – keep at it, you will learn what the truth is.
There, that ought to start another round of infant intellects howling to have their diapers changed, but a few of you will ponder this in your heart and pursue a better understanding.
I’m sort of upset Mr. Fusion…….I was really wanting to have a relationship (spirtual) with the Easter Bunny…..that fluff ball is loaded with goodies.
#34 – this goes to show you that most “west costerners” are left winged liberals that dont believe that god is real and that he is in control. i challenge everyone that looks at this post to at least goto a church service, preferably baptist, and see if you arent moved by the power of the holy spirt to repent and accept jesus into your heart. i mean at the very least watch a service on tv, were talkin about you salvation here. if anybody here agrees with me send me an email with the subject “kudos”
Comment by Jake — 9/17/2006 @ 7:43 pm
Jake… Get thee to a remedial English course today.
The SHIFT key is useful if you don’t want to be taken as a fool, but then not posting bullshit is useful too.
And by the way, liberals are not athiests. Most liberals are thiests too. And just what do you mean by “left winged liberal”? I assume, of course you mean “wing” but I have to ask if you always use a superflous qualifier such as “left wing” to describe a liberal? It begs another question. What is a “right wing liberal”?
Not that I would waste any time sending you a Kudo for your remarkably naive suggestion that a religious service, and a Baptist one for added comic effect, would somehow inspire anyone, but how shall we send this email? Do you notice anything missing from your post?
REMINDER:
If you LOOK, we are all the sons of CAIN…Under the bible.
Remember a city named for him also.
The fun part is wondering what happened to ADAM, as he was supposed to of had 12 kids…We never hear of the rest.
And that Adam was given 3 wives.
That Cain is the Builder, and Himself was condemed to live as a beast.
Thats if you wish to believe Judiism, as thats where it comes from…
God, was well as man are ‘created’ by consciousness! Unpersonal consciousness. God and man are just appearances within this consciousness.
I bet that many non-believers would happily and
voluntarily believe if they didn’t feel, at least
subconsciously, that their life would be changed,
that they would loose a measure of control.
That’s what happens when you sign on to the larger
cosmic agenda, oh the hell well!
But since y’all are so good at running your lives and
your planet, and don’t mind secular totalitarianism,
carry on- lesson not learned yet…
Personally, I see all kinds of holes in the traditional
religion, but this just means our brains have grown
an increment… so it’s time to update and rework our
religions … what the heck is the average spirit IQ
getting down to anyway…
What’s the news for this blog entry?
Is John just trying to get us fighting again?
you seem obsessed to comment on at least each week.
And you seem obsessed with posting the same sophomoric criticisms under 15 different names.
#34 – I’m afraid it might be pointless to try to reason with you, but I’m going to try. I grew up in a Baptist home, went to a Christian school from K-12, and attended a Christian college. None of this should matter, but I tell you this because maybe knowing that you’ll listen to me when I tell you that whatever you want to believe about God, one thing he is not is a republican, and another thing he is not is a Baptist.
Many of the problems of American Christianity are caused by well-intentioned followers trying to marry their religion with either the political (“God is a Republican”) or cultural (“God wants you to have lots of stuff”) landscape of this country, when a read of the New Testament shows that a true picture of Jesus flies in the face of both political and cultural conventional wisdom. Maybe you’re a right-wing republican Christian and so you think abortion is wrong and that makes you feel good about yourself. But now ask yourself if you’ve given everything to the poor. Ask yourself how entitled you feel to the vast wealth you possess compared to most of the people on this planet.
And I’d be careful about getting too excited about denominations. Denominations are run by imperfect people, not God. The Baptist version of God doesn’t want women in the ministry and turned water into grape juice instead of wine. I’d argue that these beliefs are things to be ashamed of, not brag about.
If “Two men say they’re jesus one of them must be wrong”
Dire Straits….Industrial Disease
43,
then which part of the bible do you believe and pratice.
The Judism based part of the old testiment, based on what happened int he past, or the parts created from the new testiment with 17 story tellers and there own built in OPINIONS of whom and what christ was.
This is like those Theologions that think that KNOWING 1 religion is enough for the title…Look at them all, and bring them together….
Hmmm, I wonder if it’s okay to knock on doors to promote Atheism.
“Hello fellow primate. Sorry to disturb your bath, but I’m wondering if you know that it’s never too late to disbelieve in God’s existence?”
#50
That’s funny 🙂 and I got a good laugh from it, but the pedantic side of me wants to point out that we liberal evolutionists do not mistakenly confuse humans with primates.
What is the caption from?
#52, what caption?
If God, created this whole thing as a test… I would say we are FLUNKING… and I dont care WHICH GOD we are talking about.
1. we arent making this a better place to BE.
2. Lets get off this planet
2a, other systems are moving AWAY from us, and soon wont be able to be reached. Its an expnading universe, and the longer we wait the Farther they get.
2b. This planet can only sustain a certain amount of population, before we all start EATING each other. Even a Dog would rather piss in someone ELSE’s yard, and Cattle dont eat where they DROP it either.
2c. humans NEED/WANT room to move, as do Many other animals. SOON there will be to many HERE. And it will be considered TO CLOSE, and someone will push the button, and another button, and ANOTHER…
Rich and Jake,
And what makes you “believe” there is a God? Did God speak to you? Did he leave an e-mail for you? Was his likeness formed in the puddle of ketchup after dipping your fries? What makes you believe?
You want me to believe, but you haven’t shown me anything to believe.
I see a world created from dust and atoms collecting. I see a sun shining, fueled by nuclear fusion. I see billions of stars at night, each shining for the same reason our sun is. I see people around me; multi cell organisms, each coexisting, with flaws and abilities and disabilities. I see great machines moving us to our destinations and doing work for us, making our lives easier and longer. I see diseases cured that once took our life. I see small aids, like eyeglasses and soap, that make our existence easier.
I see the work of nature. I see the work of man. And I see how man has shaped nature. Now once again, what can you show me what God has done? Or better still, where did God come from?
We’re all going to end up in that big composter we call Earth. I hear Baptists make excellent fertilizer.
56,
Agreed…
1 way or another…
If we dont get EVERYONE to correct their ways….we will…
Blow each other up..
Blow ourselves up..
Beat each other senceless, for more room..
SUCK the oxygen out of the air and die of CO2 poisoning..
Start eating EACH other, because all the food is gone(with a est. world pop growth of another 3 billion by 2050)
Poison ourselves with our OWN polution, radioactive and otherwise…Benezine levels int he ocean is killing the fish…
Take your pick or add MORE… We have to many to out run, or out live.
the Change is NOW, or never.
Hehe… interresting comment thread. I’m thinking that if you guys find this discussion interresting, you should also check out Scott Adams’ (creator of Dilbert) little book called “God’s Debris”. It contains quite an interresting discussion.
The following link will take you to the full text PDF-version of the free book.
http://tinyurl.com/c734r
55. I believe there is something very inate about the human need for religion and superstition. If you understand that a superstitious person makes connections between things where there are no actual connections, you can also see the same phenomena in other animals.
One of the examples provided in a zoology program I once took were birds that were given random shocks when they had to stand on an electroplate to feed. When they got a shock they would jump to another plate that was not presently electrofied. Pretty soon they were developing their own internal rules connected to when the shock would or would not come. That is, some would do certain behaviors and certain things like turn around two times or hop on one foot because they detected a connection between that and comfort: ie: not getting shocked. The shocks were random.
That type of behavior is universal. In humans it is called superstition and in the extreme: religion.
I believe this, but somehow I still stink as an atheist. I was going to relate a story about once calling out to my long passed-away mother for desperate help (supposedly with the God connection) when it appeared my very premature daughter might die – but that is just too insanely embarrassing. And I truly don’t believe in any of that stuff.
So I also believe “there are no atheists in foxholes.”
RBG
And with God’s help, maybe someday I’ll learn to spell and write much good English too.
RBG
Okay #55. Here’s something for you to ponder.
An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, The Almighty. He asks one of his new students to stand and…..
Prof : So you believe in God?
Student: Absolutely, sir.
Prof: Is God good?
Student: Sure.
Prof: Is God all-powerful?
Student: Yes.
Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn’t.How is this God good then? Hmm?
Student is silent.
Prof: You can’t answer, can you? Let’s start again, young fellow. Is God good?
Student: Yes.
Prof: Is Satan good?
Student: No.
Prof: Where does Satan come from?
Student: From…God…
Prof: That’s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student: Yes.
Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn’t it? And God did make everything. Correct?
Student: Yes.
Prof: So who created evil?
Student does not answer.
Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don’t they?
Student: Yes, sir.
Prof: So, who created them?
Student has no answer.
Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son…Have you ever seen God?
Student: No, sir.
Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?
Student: No, sir.
Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?
Student: No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t.
Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?
Student: Yes.
Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.
Prof: Yes Faith. And that is the problem science has.
Now the student said, Can I ask something of you, Professor.
Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Prof: Yes.
Student : And is there such a thing as cold?
Prof: Yes.
Student: No sir. There isn’t.
(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)
Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don’t have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.
(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)
Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn’t darkness?
Student: You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light… But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness, isn’t it? In reality, darkness isn’t. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?
Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?
Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?
Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?
Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.
Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?
(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.)
Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?
(The class is in uproar.)
Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor’s brain?
(The class breaks out into laughter.)
Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor’s brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face unfathomable.)
Prof: I guess you’ll have to take them on faith, son. Student: That is it sir… The link between man & god is FAITH. That is all that keeps things moving & alive. .
It is said that this is a true story, and the student was none other than DR. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam President of India