God, sang the late John Lennon, is a concept. At the time, this prompted several profound questions, questions such as: “So?”, followed by: “And?” The former Beatle then launched into a primal scream of a tune in which he explained that by this concept we “measure our pain”. Big fan that I am, I was none the wiser.
Where religion is concerned, some of us are like that. Either we are too stupid – always a safe bet – or too smart to fall for catch-all explanations. You choose. Recent debates over evolution have, for example, illustrated the divide with an amusing clarity. Listening to fundamentalist American Christians attempting sophistication with this year’s “proof” of a deity’s existence can provide hours of fun.
I no longer seek to provoke those who believe, even for fun. I seem to manage that without trying. In a grudging sort of way, I actually admire the ability of the Vatican, or any mullah, or some minor Presbyterian, to insist on the sort of moral authority that long ago ceased to be plausible in the real world, at least when measured in terms of those who still believe in the tooth fairy. But why, really, do we still listen?
Power becomes a habit. The men (usually men) of God are no different from our temporal rulers. Both provide us with hokum, more or less, but both believe they are entitled to lay down their laws. What other use could power offer? John Lennon was almost right. It would have stretched the lyric somewhat, but God is a concept by which we measure our ability to listen, believe, and obey. Like it or not – and I don’t, much – that concept remains potent.
We who doubt and disbelieve, we of a Humean temper, if not a Humean intellect, cannot simply fling the odd joke against the fact of religion’s persistence. This is the nature of our world. There is a religious fanatic in the White House, another in Downing Street, a third somewhere in the hills on the Afghan-Pakistan border, a fourth in the Vatican, a fifth in the house just up the road.
If that has happened by design, can I do my own drawings?
There’s a great deal more in the whole article: from a discussion of the skepticism of Hume to establishing fiscal priorities. The John Lennon part strikes an especially responsive chord for me — though I might have used The BeeGees “I Started a Joke” since every line fits perfectly into the context of the then-current “God Is Dead” brouhaha.
God is a creation of man. Some believe it is the other way around, so choose your side and let’s rumble.
Interestingly, L. Frank Baum was actually on a similar track
What was that song the Stones did, something about Lucifer and his antics down through the ages?
Thing is, all organised religions are built on the shepherd/flock model, with charlatans of different degree “guiding” their flocks toward whatever destinations they feel approbriate.
The weak minded tend to form clusters around these low rent messiahs, hanging on every word with rapturous attention, said words usually badmouthing their competitors, i.e., other “Tools Of God”, or some such silliness.
People with brains that work tend to form their own concepts of religion, or lack thereof, then live their lives without bothering other people with over loud proclaimations of the “rightness”
of their thoughts.
I never was a big fan of Lennon, but on this case he is right. I also agree with the power thing. These religious leaders are no different then politicians in a way. They both crave power and the ability to control the masses whether its through laws or religious dogma. In a sense the religious leader wields more power as religion drives people’s passions more then any man’s law.
It is the reason why I don’t believe in organized religion.
The gun is good. The penis is evil. The penis shoots seeds, and makes new life, and poisons the earth with a plague of men, as once it was. But the gun shoots death, and purifies the earth of the filth of brutals. Go forth and kill!
My penis isn’t evil, is it? Somebody tell me my penis isn’t evil!
I think it’s kind of cute.
The picture is from Zardoz, right?
Where does he get these wonderful illustrations?
Oh heck, why not another post.
The only thing that matters with religion is whether it is true or false. If it’s false, then it’s about the stupidest thing one could imagine. If it’s true, then those who don’t follow it are about as stupid as one could imagine. If it’s a fabrication of men, designed to keep certain people in power (wow, this is sounding like the iraq war) then the supporters are unwise.
(In regard to this last part, all or almost all Christ’s apostles went to their deaths willingly, with glad and faithful hearts – so I don’t think their faith was designed simply to keep them in power).
Re #8, Ok Jimbo, what religion do I follow so that I won’t be “stupid as one could imagine.” Where are the rules in plain language that the creator made miraculously appear in front of all mankind for all to see in unison, so that there was no question in what rules we were to follow?
Instead we are left with choices to follow any version of interpretive and ambiguous rules resulting in fiercely opposing concepts and ideals. Intelligent by design? More likely different groups of ordinary men looking for control (power) and using man’s superstitious tendancies (ignorance) as a tool.
“God is a concept by which we measure our ability to listen, believe, and obey.” Ian Bell
Aw geez Jimbo, don’t confuse the followers, willing to sacrifice all for the comfort of “being right, being saved, and belonging to the select tribe” with the ones who intentionally manipulate this for personal power and wealth.
Not all religious/spritiual leaders are corrupt. Not all followers are stupid. But a significant number do questionable things that make their choices seem really downright secular in thier motives. Until people of belief are willing to call out the Jerry Fallwells as the greedy nutjobs they are, the whole will get tarred by their acts.
John-I like your blog for the tech/current events stuff you post (some pictures are pretty good also), but there are better discussions elsewhere for the religion thing…you seem obsessed to comment on at least each week.
Pascal’s famous game-theory “wager” applies here – it’s smart to bet God exists because if not, you lose nothing, but if so, you won’t be caught with your theological pants down. I suspect most people consider some equivalent train of thought, shrug, and go to church whenever they’re supposed to in their particular culture. The rest of the time it’s life goes on as usual.
The only real problem with that arrangement is how easy it is for cynics and hypocrites to take advantage of people’s willingness to believe, well, just about anything. (Jesus would endorse cluster bombs and land mines, for example, as a simple extension of his harrassing money-changers out of the temple with a whip.) Give a “leader” (agenda-setter) a tool like that, and a personal stake in the outcome, and you wind up with situations like Pat Robertson using donated relief money to spirit personally owned diamond-mining equipment out of despot Charles Taylor’s falling African tyranny.
Interesting how often religious “leaders” ally themselves with authoritarian political figures on the right.
My tombstone shall read “Forgive me if I’m wrong”
Jimbo — Zardoz it is.
prairie — Open thine eyes and ye shall see this post is by me, not John.
I thought God was a woman. The Goddess thing you know, and if you read the old testament, she’s a real bitch!
[edit: 1. read comment guide. 2. So far from topic you may have posted on the wrong page?]
Like many posters here, I’ve long since stopped believing in religon–none of the religons make sense if you look at them critically.
However, billions of people still believe in religon. For me, this begs the question of why do people believe? The answer appears to be that people have an innate capacity to believe in religon/supernatural/mystical things. I came across this article (see link below) that lays out a reasonable theory theory of why so many believe. There a probably a number of social reasons people follow a religon (their family all attends church, a feeling of community, a need for a set of rules, a tendency to follow leaders) but I like how this article looks at the biological basis for it.
[edited — pls use tinyurl for long links]
I do wish people would people stop insulting the religious. They’re not stupid. There are many benefits of belonging to such a community & many people probably believe just because of those benefits. Being in a community that cares for it’s members is a very important part of being human–I’d say it was essential.
If we can understand why we are religious, we can begin to build social institutions that are more rational–or at least less destructive.
As John Lennon said, “Imagine…”
jimbo beat me to Zardoz. Now there was a God movie if there ever was one……:)
When it comes to religion…..my head always leans towards Bhuddism. I guess the concept of do good, live good and no God to worship (son of or anything) is what appeals to me. Beats the hell out of worshipping money, power, or technology.
Good article Fossick. Take the biological angle and throw “cultural/social momentum” in with it, and you’ve got something.
Many (of you) confuse religion with dogma. All need to have a relationship with God. This relationship is personal, not an item one can get by listening to Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell Jesse Jackson or Osama Bin Laden. Get a Bible and read the books of Mathew and Acts. Stay away from televangelist and those who’s brain have been through the rinse cycle.
God is not a religion
Power corrupts and leading a religion is a powerful position, so you do the inevitable math.
The Bible states that God will even judge the savages who have no knowledge of religion because they know right from wrong, so do right and don’t worry about religion.
If you pay attention, and you have faith, you can see God’s hand at work in the world today.
Read the New Testament and you will see that Jesus was most unhappy with religious leaders and their hypocrisy, so who do you trust.
..add this all up and know that things on earth as concerns the human race seldom change. If you want knowledge it can be found, going to the source is better than dealing with middle management types.
Most if not all people marvel at God’s/Christ existence when “Religion” is properly practiced, Love of God leads to Love of people and self sacrifice, think Mother Teresa.
What causes people to question God’s existence is “Religion” practiced as Love of God leads to death of people and self sacrifice, think Middle East and suicide bombers.
God is all powerful, so why does evil happen to his good people? Why is Christian divorce rate is the same as the non Christian divorce rate? In today’s age “all truth” is to be scientific, that is it must be independently experimentally replicated, if not, it’s not accepted truth. Religion can’t can be independently experimentally replicated, let alone routinely practiced at the level of Mother Teresa.
Who can answer these questions. You can’t deny them. The only acceptable proof offered of God/Christ existence is through his people.
Is religion an irrational believe, not for me, not in my experience; other will certainly say yes. I’ve studied the sciences, physics in particular, extensively at an Ivory League School and yet I am a believer in Jesus and I am not a Mother Teresa. I certainly disagree with Bush and the Right Wing Darwin haters.
“Listening to fundamentalist American Christians” – reminds me that education has been in the dumper for a lot longer that we admit.
…All need to have a relationship with God.
Nope. Sorry I don’t need a relationship with God, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, or Shrek.
Re: 4 – “These religious leaders are no different then politicians in a way. ”
Well, you have to realize that before there were governments, there was only religion. Religious leaders have always been politicians. They have always tried to control the thinking and the actions of anyone that will listen. And, in innumerable cases, the thinking and actions of those that wouldn’t listen (usually at the tip of a sword).
As for god as a concept, would there be a god if there were no humans? With no one to write the bible(s), there would be no god(s). God is absolutely a creation of the imagination of man. God did not write these books, men did. And without these books, there would be no god. So, if man created these books, man created god. All this talk of the bible authors being “divinely guided” in their writing is crap. If god wanted to make a book, he would have made a billion books appear out of thin air and said something to the effect of “Read this and do what it says”.
I have asked religious types if they think there is intelligent life on other planets. Many say “yes”. I then ask if these aliens have a Bible just like ours. That stumps most of them since aliens would have no knowledge of Jerusalem or Moses or Jesus or Mohammed. If there are aliens and, if they are religious, their god(s) and bible(s) will have virtually zero similarity to ours.
Of course, the Mormons thought of this and their Jesus is actually an alien from another planet. Planet Kolob, I think. That is thinking ahead. But, if we ever meet aliens and they have never heard of Kolob, the Mormon religion will be in for some turbulence.
God does not exist, but He is the only thing that is absolutely real.
If you can understand this, you can understand me. I’m not just repeating something I’ve read. I KNOW this to be 100% True by personal experience.
I was all prepared to rumble but #1 said it best. I have to say though, that I don’t care what one believes as long as it doesn’t effect me. Do the same and we have no problem…
Ah youth! You have so much time,so much bluster. When you get older and the end gets closer you will find why religion is such a persistent human phenomena.
There are so few people have the real courage to stare into the abyss and fall without a sound. Most of us are whimpering cowards and in the end selfishly plead for something beyond death.
Your sense of self is a function of your cumulative experiences recorded in synapse pathways in your brain. When you die your brain, and therefore everything that defines you. dies with it. What is a soul then, and what good is it since only brainless people can go to heaven? (pun)
Pekuliar, so which category do you put yourself into, whimpering or silent? Anyway, no matter of pleading will change the facts, although it may make you feel better at the last few moments.