The high school class of 2006 recorded the sharpest drop in SAT scores in 31 years, a decline that the exam’s owner, the College Board, said was partly due to some students taking the newly lengthened test only once instead of twice.
The results come several months after numerous colleges reported surprisingly low SAT scores for this year’s incoming college freshmen. The nonprofit College Board, which had said scores would be down this year, released figures Tuesday showing combined critical reading and math skills fell seven points on average to 1021.
You can read the article to see all the lame excuses. This is the result after five years of the “education” president.
The problem really lies in the fact that there is massive corruption in the entire public educational system. There are definitely decent amount of well capable teachers and parents out there in this country. But the fact is, there’s a lot of bureaucratic red tape coming from every direction when it comes to the overall education process.
Attempts to change the system are usually foiled by some group (unions, parents, administrators, politicians) that cries foul and that the reform affects them negatively in some way. There are too many selfish people that are just looking out for their own interest, rather than the overall good for this country and this society. Everyone here can play the blame game all they want, but it’s everyone’s fault and the buck should stop with everyone. Take some responsibility…I wouldn’t mind paying more taxes if it meant OUR educational system had more funding for improvement (even if I cannot afford it), I wouldn’t mind voting for someone that is willing to make the tough political decisions to reform the system for the better (even if it meant cutting into other government related programs), and I certainly wouldn’t mind getting incompetent educational administrators replaced by ones that can do their jobs better (even if I have to go out of my way to get other parents to organize against them).
This is a job for everyone to be actively involved in…education is not something to take for granted and leave for other people to fix…
Well J, are you saying that we shouldn’t pay people for working? I disagree with that. Certianly, I believe we should pay for teachers to teach; I don’t expect them to do it for free. But I guess you have a problem with someone who charges for their expertise. You attack the person, but not the facts. Typical.
Face it, our public educaton system is a monopoly and it’s current design is a detriment to our society. There isn’t properly directed motivation by public school administrators to educate children in an efficient manner.
In my own home town I pay a little more to send 2 children to private school than the local school spends on 1 child. (and the local public schools are fairly good in my town) So the efficiency in public schools aren’t there.
It isn’t the teachers that are the problem; it is all the corruption and misdirection of energy.
jim
“You attack the person, but not the facts. Typical.”
No I attacked both! read my post again
If you read the study, you probably didn’t, you would see THEY point out the THEIR data collection is not an exact science. So that means it could be wrong
Besides. Information is only as reliable as it’s source. If a crack addict gives you “the best investment information in town”. It would be wise to question his advice.
Well I took it earlier this year, and my math and reading was a 1290, and I did that after flying all day the day before. And #6, I thought the SAT was easier than the ACT, which I got a 31 on. The SAT is broken up into lots of 20 and 30 minute sections, where the ACT has all the math at once, all the reading, etc… I liked having lots of little breaks instead of doing it all at once.
I’ll put part of the blame on religion… Religion has grown strong in the USA. Religious fanatics
1. gets Bush elected.
2. gets the President sets the agenda for biotech research.
3. cheer on as the country goes to war against Iraq.
4. push for religious indoctrination in schools.
5. who home school their kids.
Dumb people are easier to control.
Face it, our public educaton system is a monopoly and it’s current design is a detriment to our society. There isn’t properly directed motivation by public school administrators to educate children in an efficient manner.
First, you show just how intelligent you are by misspelling education .
Then you show you know even less by referring to the education system as a monopoly. You readily admitted there are alternatives so it cannot be a monopoly.
Then you claim the school administrators aren’t properly motivated because they are not efficient enough, even if the schools are good in your area.
In my own home town I pay a little more to send 2 children to private school than the local school spends on 1 child. (and the local public schools are fairly good in my town) So the efficiency in public schools aren’t there.
Well I’m calling bull crap on that one. The only way you could be privately educating two students for almost the price of one would be if the teachers were not being paid, as in home schooled.
I also noted that you didn’t link or even mention where these schools are.
Though in my own research I found a study showing that those whose name begins with a “J” but spell it lower case usually like to exaggerate. They also have a habit of inventing “facts”.
If you don’t like the School Board and their direction, VOTE FOR SOMEONE ELSE. Call your representative on the Board and voice your concerns. Go to Board meetings. Join the Parent Teacher Association or similar organization. Damn I get tired of people that complain yet won’t use the democratic system to correct it. It is just so much easier to blame the Teachers and their union.
Mark Twain once said, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. He was almost right. There are lies, damn lies, and those who use statistics incorrectly to bolster a bad argument.
This year’s SAT is different then last year’s. Therefore they are not comparable. You can not use different tests to measure the same performance in two different populations.
The test itself can only be used to measure the individual, not the population. That is because the population taking the test is skewed and voluntary. If the test was given to every student then there would be some validity to comparisons of the entire population. Even if the test was given to consistent samples then there could be validity.
Bush is not responsible for the SAT scores. Bush is not responsible for anything. Yet, Federal funding for education has increased under Bush. Keeping that in mind, it is still below the levels required by the No Child Left Behind Act.
Now, instead of schools just passing a student along to the next grade, they are taught to pass a test. Hey, it is measurable, and even comparable. It is just not conducive to learning.
A better measure of our academic progress would be the number of students graduating from various levels. I sure think there is a much higher percentage of students graduating from High School each year. The same could be said for Colleges and post graduate levels.
Our school standards have dropped over the past 30 years. The Engineering-In-Training exam (post college) is 8 hours long with a short 30 min break for lunch. This EIT exam is required to take the Professional Engineers exam, also 8 hours. Only then do you have a license to build America’s infrastructure and technology lead.
How many space shuttles have to blow up before we admit our children are getting dumber? Study hard people, we can’t all be like Bush and get a free ride.
What they said about tution keeping down disciniplinary problems – true – I went to a small private school, and the only “disiplinary problems” we had were the kids who got sent there because their parents and/or the public education system couldn’t handle them. I made 2300 on the SAT (the new one this year, out of 2400) and about 1/3 of my grad class had A averages. One case, but it tells some.
I suppose im a bit late on this one. Let me tell you, I took the old and new SAT. On the old I scored a 1300. I did significantly worse on the new proportionally. It IS much more difficult and as it still fresh, they are not appropriately preparing students for it.
As a side item: Religious education/knowledge scores have tripled so that easily offsets those SAT scores which are biased judgements and conclusions set up by the liberals and their deceitful agenda.
As some want to blame the administrators and the system, did we forget the situation a couple years ago where a teacher (Kansas, I think) failed a whole group of students for cheating? The parents threatened to sue and the school board made the teacher pass the students. IMO, that is the root of the problem in our education system.
As for funding efficiency, private schools have the advantage that they aren’t required to take* every learning-disabled, FAS, delinquent, anti-social, deviant, unmedicated ADHD, and broken-home youth the community can create. Privates only take the cream, which by definition is cheaper. This is why ‘competition’ in education is a fatally-flawed approach.
*With NCLB, publics are required to get these students to pass exams with the same scores as ‘normal’ students. Which is just as likely as me becoming a neurosurgeon next summer.
#42, you hit upon some very good points about Parent pressure. While I seem to remember something about your Kansas point, that isn’t what I was thinking of when I said to contact your Board when you have concerns.
Also, I understand if you stay in a Holiday Inn Express you automatically qualify for neurosurgery.
I live in Beaverton, Oregon. Just outside of Portland Oregon. My children are NOT homeschooled. I can send them to a private school for about $9,000 a year. The local public school gets $8,000 a year per student. Beaverton is not an inner city school. And yes at the private school the teachers get paid and get benefits.
To deny that our elementry public school system is a monopoly smacks of ignorance. The vast majority of our children get their “education” from a public school. Even though a small minority of children can escape public school that does not “prove” public schools aren’t a monopoly.
As for funding, the public schools don’t have to educate everyone. There is NO requirement that they educate everyone. This is a myth. There is a requirement that they make available education to everyone, but there is NOT a requirement that they do it themselves. Very subtle but important difference. For example, the government can allow a for profit (or non-profit) organization to educate autistic children. The local government can pay for that. The local government does not have to do it themselves. They do it themselves because they want the money for doing it. Special needs kids are gold. The schools get huge amounts of money for special needs kids. (above and beyond the normal allotment) Why do you think the public schools want to test your child? They want to see if they can get more money by slotting your child as a special needs kid. (That doesn’t mean all testing is bad, but there is a bias towards labeling kids as special needs. The result being that some are not, but are labled as such.)
There is plenty of evidence of inefficiencies in public schools. Public schools have no motivation to server their customers. (students and parents) Their motivation is to get more funding from the state. Two different entities.
Learn some basic economics; read something other than Marx. Marx was a genius, but he was wrong.
jim
I agree with you that the public schools are a mess
BUT
Before you go making stupid statement like
“To deny that our elementry public school system is a monopoly smacks of ignorance.”
You should look up the definition of the word.
Here I did it for you but I won’t do your homework for you anymore.
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/monopoly
None of those definitions are true in regards to the public school system.
As far as this statement……”They do it themselves because they want the money for doing it.”
Yeah those educators and there never ending greed!!! So many of them live in big houses and drive fancy cars LOL
To deny that our elementry public school system is a monopoly smacks of ignorance. The vast majority of our children get their “education” from a public school. Even though a small minority of children can escape public school that does not “prove” public schools aren’t a monopoly.
First, jim, it is spelled elementary. A small, but elementary point.
Second, I refer you to the definition of monopoly.
http://www.answers.com/monopoly
For a strict academic definition, a monopoly is a market containing a single firm.
I notice that you neither mentioned the “private”school nor a link. Then if it costs $9000, that is more then the $8,000 for the public school. Unless math has changed since I woke up this morning.
J, please identify the other party that controls elementry education. (Colleges and Universities have a fair amount of competition) If you are a family of 4 making $35,000 a year in a major metropolitan area in the US please indicate the other elementry school options that are available for that person. (and that fit in their budget) Answer: slim to none. If your one option is the public school system that certainly seems to fit the definition of monopoly for me. I agree that if you are in the top 5% of wage earners then you have a lot more options. But most people aren’t in that bracket. (that’s why it is the top 5%)
When people buy a home they choose the neighborhood by what school system it has. So if they have little if any choice about where they live then they get little if any choice about their elementry schools. That’s a monopoly. When a Nobel Laureate calls the US public school system a monopoly that has some pull in my book. (eg Milton Friedman)
Perhaps you should use a more sophisticated definition.(not just an elementry school level)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly
As for funding, the public schools don’t have to educate everyone. There is NO requirement that they educate everyone. This is a myth.
Again, an unsubstantiated argument. My rebuttal is bull crap !!! The No Child Left Behind Act clearly states otherwise, insisting upon all states meeting standards and improvements. Also, to my knowledge, every state has similar legislation outlining standards, goals, curriculum, testing, procedures, and materials to be used. While I can’t answer for every state, at least in our state, education is mandated in our constitution as a right.
There is plenty of evidence of inefficiencies in public schools. Public schools have no motivation to server their customers. (students and parents) Their motivation is to get more funding from the state. Two different entities.
I hope our schools are not servers. Geeze, I don’t know if you meant server as in the computer network hub or as a restaurant person who gives you your food. Either way, you used a noun as a verb.
Would you care to point out some inefficiencies? Every school I am aware of has little extra money to spend. Then again, a school is not a “for profit” company, it is a government extension. The purpose of schools is to impart knowledge to students.
Learn some basic economics; read something other than Marx. Marx was a genius, but he was wrong.
I have. I minored in economics. And no, I have never read Das Kapitol, other then a few references and citations. Nor have I read Engels. I have no idea why you would think Marx was wrong or why that is even relevant to this discussion, jim.
Well, Mr. Fusion. If you read it you would notice I pay $9,000 for 2 children. The local school system gets $8,000 PER CHILD. By my math the local school system gets $16,000 for 2 children and $16,000 is LARGER THAN $9,000. There are several private schools in the area that exhibit this disparity. (one has been in existance for over 100 years, mine for a much shorter time) This is not a unique phenomenom. The latest study on public schools vs schools choosen (vouchers ) show similar effects. The private voucher school was almost half the price of the public school. Do you really believe an institution shielded from their customers is effecient? Again, basic economics would lead one to believe the answer is no. I have never heard anyone argue that public elementry schools are efficient. You would be the first. If they are please provide evidence.
NCLB originally specified that 100% of students will meet standards by 2016 or thereabouts, including special needs. (Sounds like a requirement to me.) Fortunately the rational people at DoE recently made changes to reflect reality, whereby the most difficult-to-educate students can fall into another category. But only the worst schools want more special-needs kids for the money…in the rest of the schools these students cost far more than they bring in.
Here in Michigan there a law that you attend school until you are 16. Most states have similar laws, but maybe not Oregon? So yes, the public schools are required to take all, with very, very few exceptions, and NCLB requires similarly that all learn.
Sure, some teachers and principals have no motivation to be efficient, but then again many regular employees and manager don’t either. OTOH school boards and superintendents have all sorts of motivation to run efficient schools…from local voters.
You need to read the law. The law does not say the government has to be the educator. It says the government has to make sure it is provided. It doesn’t have to provide it. (common myth) No state is required to be part of the NCLB Act. They can eschewe it. Do you really think public schools are efficient? Just because they complain about not having enough money doesn’t mean they use the funds they have wisely. One assumption doesn’t follow the other.
Yes, schools schould serve their customers (students). The problem is that public schools don’t think of students as customers. Private schools do. Therein lies the difference. Public schools don’t view their money coming from the parents, but from the state or local government. Private schools see the money coming from the parents. Big difference. If the money followed the student to any school then there would be incentive (like in some European countries) to improve.
Because as a nation we won’t adress this issue head on we are slowly losing our competitiveness. More and more students in colleges and universities are NOT from the US. Colleges are having a harder and harder time getting US citizens to qualify. (last year was the first year more women went to college than men. I am all for women going to college.)
Well baggins, you need to learn to read. I never said that children were not required to attend school. Yes, in Oregon they are required to attend school. There is no requirement that the government RUN public schools. There is a requirement that government makes sure schooling IS PROVIDED. These are two very different things. In Maine for example, the government pays a non governmental entity to teach some children because of the distances to the nearest public school. The government doesn’t have to run the school. It can pay someone else to run the school. (many instances of that happening)
School boards are another layer and are not responsive to the public’s needs. People need to be able to vote with their dollars. The NEA etc. will fight it with their last breath.(because it is a control issue, not because they want children to learn.)
jim
I used Webster’s for two reasons 1. I guessed you didn’t have a subscription to the Oxford English Dictionary 2. I figured elementary school was right at your level because even after Mr. Fusion was nice enough to point out your error in spelling. You continued to do it. Not once but 5 times LOL
Again you use wikipedia as a source. If that wasn’t funny enough none of those definitions support your argument either LOL
I have to leave you alone now I am starting to feel sorry for you. 🙂
Wow. It’s all the fault of the President. I don’t like Bush and I wish he weren’t President, but I don’t consider my child’s education to be his business or really the business of the state. People have been learning to read for a long time – literacy rates in the US were higher before we had public education than they are now. It’s up to me to ensure that my child can read well and think critically. Blaming a lack of effort to ensure that my children will have options in the future on the President or anyone else in the government, would be a huge mistake.
Those who are discussing the money that public schools get should also consider that there are considerable costs from which public schools are shielded. For instance, on energy bills, schools are exempt from the taxes that most of us pay. Construction costs are often funded through local bonds so that more of the money from state and federal sources can be spent on salaries and other costs. Private schools dont’ have these numerous advantages and yet they still manage to provide a better education at a lower cost.
I suggest that anyone who believes that public education has as it’s priority the academic achievement of our youth consider that the whole system was founded not on academics but on creating “good government citizens.” Considering how much power we give over to government to run our daily lives, I’d say the public school system has done that job very well.
jim, you are so full of sh*t your breath stinks. I called bull crap on your “private” school and so far you haven’t provided any link or even a name to go with it. Simply because it doesn’t exist, except in your mind. It is possible that it is a parochial school with the tuition set at $4500 and the rest raised through benefactors, fund raising, etc. Shoot, it might even meet state required standards, if lucky.
By your refusal to name or link the school simply suggests you don’t really want it to be investigated.
You need to read the law. The law does not say the government has to be the educator. It says the government has to make sure it is provided.
Here in Indiana it does. The State Constitution requires that each district set up an elected School Board. Each School Board is responsible for implementing the standards as set by the state and to test every student to ensure they achieve that goal. Since we elect them, that makes the School Boards part of the government. Also I don’t think any states vary much from that.
The private voucher school was almost half the price of the public school.
Please provide a link. Also, please keep in mind that voucher schools are immune to over-site and very few have shown significant improvement in students scholastic achievements. Troubles students are often not admitted, leaving them to the public system. Most are also dependent upon sponsors providing significant help, including money, buildings, and materials. Teachers are seldom reimbursed as much as public school teachers.
Do you really believe an institution shielded from their customers is effecient? Again, basic economics would lead one to believe the answer is no.
It is correctly spelled efficient.
It is possible that an institution shielded from its customers might be inefficient. It would depend upon your definition of efficient and each individual case. If you are talking about public schools, then you are still out to lunch. You have still not demonstrated they are either inefficient or shielded from their base, meaning the taxpayers.
What is basic economics? Is that what you learned in your “private” school? The same place you learned to spell.
jim, you are on an agenda and have been listening to other people that don’t know what they are talking about. Almost everything you have posted is bull crap, unsubstantiated, inventions, and a total figment of your imagination. Get a life, and for their sake, enroll your kids in the public school system before it is too late. You are obviously wasting their lives as well as your own.
It might also help if you got laid, but that is entirely optional.
jim, your political bias (and pedantry) is showing in a big way. “Industrial” solutions will not work in education, in large part because the school cannot select its suppliers nor their quality. They have to take all comers. And that changes everything.
BTW, the US still has the most dynamic economy, the vast majority of entrepenuers, zillions of small independent businesses, most of the New Ideas, and more ways to get from nothing to comfortable. Our education system isn’t nearly as big a problem as some claim (I agree with you BHK). The big-city and low-income systems are exceptions.
Yes, schools schould serve their customers (students). The problem is that public schools don’t think of students as customers.
I think you meant should
I can’t answer for Oregon though I doubt if they are much different. Parents are partners with the schools in educating children. Our local school expects that parents have a hand in what and how their children learn. Every teacher and administrator is open to hear a parent and discuss with them how their child is fairing.
If the students and parents become “customers” then obviously the whole onus is now on the school to make sure the student learns. The best students have always had parent involvement, the worst have had precious little.
Maybe in the private schools where each student is more money for the school and its owners.
Oh man this is painful to watch!
Please leave him alone. He knows not the error in his thinking.
It is like shooting fish in a barrel. It just isn’t fair and it is cruel!
“Have you seen the increase in home schooling over the past 31 years?”
Actually, students who are homeschooled or attend charter schools not affiliated with a public school system do worse academically. (And, no, cherrypicking the small minority of such children who go on to attend elite colleges to serve as representatives does not solve the problem.)
What homeschooling does excel at is indoctrination, usually Right Wing, under the rubric of ‘Christian.’
And, where in the world did someone get the notion that children in Oregon are exempt from attending school until they are 16? Please. And, believe it or not, child labor laws also apply in the Pacific Northwest.
Posesta
You must have me confused with someone who supports home schooling.
My statement was meant in jest. I was poking fun at the home school advocates.