Hot dicussion of the month! Last Move to top.
The biggest problem with any conspiracy theory is that for any real questions there are a dozen hair-brained ideas as to what happened. No matter what happened on 9/11, the event has become a new Kennedy assassination in the lore of possible conspiracies, with theories ranging from stupidity and a failure of leadership in the face of direct warnings to an Operation Northwoods-type government operation. Those making accusations carry varying levels of credibility, further muddying the waters of the debate.
Kevin Barrett believes the U.S. government might have destroyed the World Trade Center. Steven Jones is researching what he calls evidence that the twin towers were brought down by explosives detonated inside them, not by hijacked airliners.
These men aren’t uneducated junk scientists: Barrett will teach a class on Islam at the University of Wisconsin this fall, over the protests of more than 60 state legislators. Jones is a tenured physicist at Brigham Young University whose mainstream academic job has made him a hero to conspiracy theorists.
According to polls, some Americans believe in 9/11 conspiracy theory.
With the fifth anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks quickly approaching, skepticism about the circumstances surrounding the tragedy is strong, as one in three Americans believe officials in the federal government either assisted or took no action to stop the attacks, according to a recent survey. About 36 percent of the 1,010 respondents in a national Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll said that they thought U.S. government officials were involved in the Sept. 11 atrocities because they wanted the U.S. to go to war in the Middle East.
Some accusations come from unusual sources.
The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)’s publishing arm has released a book that says President Bush organized New York’s Sept. 11 attacks. The decision by the 160-year-old Westminster John Knox Press, the trade and academic publishing imprint of the Presbyterian Publishing Corp., to attribute the attacks on the World Trade Center brings into the U.S. religious mainstream a conspiracy theory long held by the world’s jihadists.
In ‘Christian Faith and the Truth behind 9/11: A Call to Reflection and Action,’ author David Ray Griffin calls the United States the world’s ‘chief embodiment of demonic power, says he initially scoffed at 9/11 conspiracy theories.
Of course, there are also many who dismiss conspiracies. There are a number of people loudly decrying conspiracy theories, so not all the noise is from those thinking the government was behind 9/11.
So what do you think? Ignorance, conspiracy, or terrorist act?
Pedro –
I think ECA means “why would the US goverment want to do this, per the conspiracy theories”. Did I read you correctly, ECA?
The devil just bought some ice skates. I’m agreeing with Frank.
A couple of points,
Roc, the ignition point of paper might be 450 degrees. It will burn as high as 1000 degrees though under the right conditions. As, I believe it was Frank pointed out, combined with the forced air from the high winds at that altitude, and the chimney effect, a crude Bunsen Burner would be created. This alone would raise the temperature much higher. Burning fuel in an open container will actually cool the flame compared to the closed container.
The melting point of steel is irrelevant. The steel didn’t melt. The heat weakened it past its stress point until a structural member failed. This would immediately have transfered the stress to the neighboring structural members which would have created a chain reaction (domino effect) of failures. Steel is not rigid, it is plastic and will deform. Heat will allow it to deform with much less stress. Once the member has started to deform, it becomes useless to sustain any longitudinal stress. If you watch the videos of the two towers falling, both started slowly and quickly picked up speed.
WTC 7 fell much differently then WTC 1 and 2. The two towers fell from the impact zones down while #7 fell from the bottom up. The collapse of #1 and 2 weakened the foundation of #7. the fires and damaged foundation were reason enough to PULL all firemen from the building as its collapse was imminent.
ALL debris from the site was trucked to a landfill in New Jersey. There everything was sorted by the FBI, looking for any remains or evidence. Only after the investigators were satisfied was the debris removed and buried or sold as scrap. Some steel was stolen before it reached the landfill site. The truck drivers were charged though I don’t recall the outcome, I do remember some mention that this was a mafia controlled crime.
Yes, some of you have thrown a lot of questions. But no answers. Where are the eyewitnesses accounts of the explosions? Where is the proof that the Pentagon had only a 12 foot hole? Where is the documentation that no bodies were recovered from the Pentagon or Flight 93? Where are any witnesses that demolition charges were placed in the WTC 1, 2, and / or 7?
Happy skating, Mr. Fusion. Unfortunately our little honeymoon will be over when we start discussing the events that occured leading up to, as well as those after, 9/11. 🙂
Actually it was ECA who suggested the role of the wind.
Eyewitness Accounts of Trains Bringing Down The WTC
196. “Why bother crashing the planes? Why not just say that the terrorists blew up the buildings or launch rockets at them? Why complicate the scenario increasing your chances of being detected?”
and while we are at it, if one believes the “Reichstag Fire” conspiracy theory of 9/11, why bring down the buildings at all? wouldn’t a few hundred dead from the impacts be enough for them to get the hysteria they supposedly wanted? and again, you just increase your chances of getting caught. and if it is about Iraq, why not frame Sadaam, instead of AQ? saves having to invade Afghanistan.
and finally – why didn’t these super-conspirators plant a few barrells of sarin or whatever in Iraq to keep the justification for the war from falling apart? if you can get away with 9/11, certainly you can get away with that.
The real story:
Insult is the last refuge of the incompetent.
213,
almost…
WHY would ANYONE want to take the time to teach persons to FLY….
Take the time to destroy a FEW major buildings…Mostly military related.
Myself, I can see A few other ways that could have IMPRESSED the citizans of the US, and NOT have died doing them…And been able to do ALOT more, to piss off this country. AND affected MORE people, more business, and Others besides…I cant even post these concepts, someone MIGHT take me to serious..
I posted a suggestion for Senerios, in the cagematch area, and GOT no one to answer…weeks ago..
Are we NOt so imaginitative, or are we just SCARED..
When are the RESt of us going to Stand up to OUR own country…
We have the means of instant communication with the internet.
We can Watch what is happening with our congree and reps, its available on the net. Insted of letting the Corps do it..
dont go to the TOP to voice your opinion, Start at the bottom, and give the info to ALL, that would make a comment to/about our Gov…
Its time to take it BACK…
221 “Insult is the last refuge of the incompetent. ”
I disagree. It more than likely stems from frustration. After logic, reason and fact all fail the only thing left to do is let the person know that they suffer from “profound mental retardation” and are generally unable to learn connected speech, as show by example in many posts. It is an accurate description in many cases.
It is only humane. Otherwise they many continue to believe that they are rational people. This leads to them spreading their ignorance. It really boils down to a public safety issue.
J,
No, it is arrogance to believe that those that do not agree with you are somehow less than human.
Smarttalix
First off the definition of humane is not “less than human” so maybe you are the one that is actually thinking that because I never said anyone is less than human. As a matter of fact you would have to be a human to be an idiot.
It has nothing to do with agreement. It has to do with the inability for someone to receive simple, logical , and reasonable data and then toss it aside for mysticism and speculation that is assembled to create an endless loop of nonsocial foundations on which to base their belief.
I never called anyone an idiot in this debate. Which has been very hard for me. It is perfectly o.k. for people to disagree but when one side is basing their entire argument on questions rather than any hard evidence and then they can’t understand the evidence presented enough to realize that they are simply wrong. Also, they refuse to accept any evidence that refutes their poorly collected data.
HOW ELSE SHOULD THESE PEOPLE BE DESCRIBED?? WHAT WILL MAKE THEM REALIZE THAT THEY ARE NOT USING THEIR BRAIN TO ANALYZE THE INFORMATION BEFORE THEM.?
I think being called an idiot might wake ME up to the realization that I am being perceived as less than intelligent. Maybe then I would question…”Does what I am saying even make sense?”
#225 & 227, J, So I guess you’re an idiot.
Frustration is not an excuse to hit someone. Nor can frustration excuse verbal abuse. Frustration is just another way of losing control of the situation.
And believe it or not, even though all your arguments are based on logic, reason, and fact, you could still be wrong. The other person could be basing their argument on science, proof, and the truth.
Well, J, just because someone is skeptical doesn’t make them an idiot, no matter how frustrated you are that they don’t accept your position.
I reject your premise that insult is a viable recourse when one’s interlocutor disagrees with you, no matter how incorrect you feel their position to be.
Ha, ha. People believe different things depending on which way the wind was blowing. It used to be that 70% believed Sadam Hussien was responsible for 9-11. Now 30% can’t tell you what year it happened in. Bah! People are stupid.
Wow… just… WOW. I’m honestly speechless.
It’s pathetic really. The smug, self-congratualtory masters of the electronic age. So confident in their knowledge of everything and their mistrust of everything – the worship at the alter of cynicism.
So we’ve traded the ignorance of religion and superstition for the ignorance of Google and the internet. Every disillusioned malcontent is a Warren Commission because they can Google “doesnt pass the smell test”.
This is the X-Files generation. Trust no one. The truth is out there. Your government is bumbling and incompentent. Yet your government is masterful and nearly divine in its ability to deceive and manipulate. Like caveman huddled in fear before the wrath of a thunderstorm, the X-Files generation trembles in the glow of their monitors – knowing, just *knowing* that the “military/industrial” complex that has given them life and sustained them, provided them with every conceivable luxury – unheard of things like a world of interconnected computers and flat screen TVs – is secretly plotting their destruction.
I while our ignorant youth sleep, and call for a revolution against their own government, a world away a 5th century preacher preaches a liturgy of death. In 1000 Madrasas the High Priests of Intolerance plot a global Jihad because they cannot suffer a world of gays and jews and sex and drugs.
What is their best weapon? It isnt bombs or bullets. Their best weapon isnt even their demented ideology and its infectious nature. Their best weapon is the sleeping idiot masses of fat, lazy delusional westerners who wont believe there is a threat even as they lie dying.
228 MR. H. Fusion
I have read your posts. I think you might have been looking at my post from the wrong direction. It would seem to me that you and I are on the same page as far as the conspiracy nonsense. So I am confused as to why you decided to attack me. Let me remind you. I have called no one an idiot in this debate and was not justifying anyone’s behavior. I was merely attempting to explain it.
If you still perceive me as less than intelligent I have a few people at Intertel that might disagree with you. Yeah, you might need to look that up! BUT Just for fun Show me your evidencethat I am an idiot? How do you come to this conclusion that I am an idiot? I sure hope you have proof otherwise you are just being ignoble. Why? I am not sure.
If I just said logic and reason…… yes I would agree with you but when you throw in fact…….well that is where your argument fails. The only way to knowingly reach a correct answer is using facts with logic and reason. Proof is equivalent to fact. Science is a system of knowledge for exploring facts and truth of general laws (Not the exact definition). But all good scientists know that truth is subjective and facts are facts. Yes “facts” can be disputed but then they really aren’t “facts” they are truths.
Fact = (science, proof))
Logic + Reason + Fact = correct. (This was meant in humor)
They are NOT basing their arguments on science or proof. Truth is subjective. They are basing their arguments on speculation and a wild fantasy. That does not constitute a valid argument of a rational person. After it has been carefully explained to them by many people ad infinitum and have been shown that their “truth” is not accurate they still continue down the same path of ignorance. Some might even say that person is an idiot.
Let me remind you I have called no one an idiot in this debate but I wouldn’t say calling some one an idiot is abuse. It is more of an astute observation.
Smartalix
No one is defining a skeptic as an idiot. Well, except Mr Fusion. lol I happen to be a skeptic, as my subscription to the magazine might show.
You can reject my premise all you want. The term idiot can be qualified. Those that used it, not me, did not spit it out because the person disagreed. They used it because the person showed themselves to have a complete inability to understand logic, reason, fact, science, proof, or the evidence. Instead they spew convoluted nonsense like a clinical idiot would spray spit.
mlambert890
Whoa man I thought I was negative!! lol
Er, isn’t “incompetent” an insult, Smartalix? 🙂
#234,
Sorry, no.
“Incompetent” is an adjective used to describe performance, not character. “Idiot” is a noun that describes a person. Understand the difference now?Â
For example, when I say that your question is a pathetic attempt to “catch” me, I make no assertions about your character, yet I manage to express myself completely.
There are several people here who hold opinions I heap disdain upon. Yet I do not insult them personally, and even agree with them in areas where we have common ground. If I attacked them personally instead of their positions, we would never be able to agree on anything.
Smartalix
Competence is one of the attributes or features that make up and distinguish an individual . Which is one of the definitions for Character Therefore when you say someone is incompetent you ARE attacking their character.
Before you go playing semantics you should really do your research.
You show yourself to be one that judges others on a regular basis and probably feels justified in doing so. I have proven you to be a hypocrite that uses word play to defend themselves.
We as individuals are responsible for our own emotional responses to things we read not the person writing them. Therefore, Frank IBC was just as justified at being insulted by you as anyone he called an idiot.
Many people have spouted the term idiot in this debate, not just you Pedro.
The Elois lulled themselves into thinking that everything was as it should be in a just and faithful america of the future until subterranian Morlocks came in the night to feast on the masters they used to serve.
The government might seem serving the citizens. But guess who will be sacrificed when the opportunity to make trillions of dollars comes up for grabs.
Mooo to all ye cattle happily mooing your way to the slaughterhouse.
Mooo to you too Mr. Pedro (sorry I don’t know how to laugh and moo at the same time.)
“There’s a time for everything and this is no time to witchhunt your leaders for protecting you.”
Mwohohohoho (maybe that’s how to do it) of course utmost protection is given to the cattle before the slaughter. The Japanese even massage their Angus variety to make sure that the meat stays tender.
How tender have we americans become? Mooo!
Ye all are free to make your meats as tender as ye please. But as fer me fellas, am not gonna yield mine without kickin one of them cowboys in the groin. Plus, I intend to poison my meat by urinating upside down!
Beyond all denial will be acceptance
beyond acceptance will be rage
beyond rage…
And the base keep runnin’ runnin’, and runnin’ runnin’, and runnin’ runnin’, and runnin’ runnin’, and
runnin’ runnin’, and runnin’ runnin’, and runnin’ runnin’, and runnin’ runnin’, and…
In this context, there’s no disrespect, so, when I bust my rhyme, you break your necks.
We got five minutes for us to disconnect, from all intellect collect the rhythm effect.
Obstacles are inefficient, follow your intuition, free your inner soul and break away from tradition.
Coz when we beat out, girl it’s pullin without.
You wouldn’t believe how we wow shit out.
Burn it till it’s burned out.
Turn it till it’s turned out.
Act up from north, west, east, south.
[Chorus:]
Everybody, everybody, let’s get into it.
Get stupid.
Get it started, get it started, get it started.
Let’s get it started (ha), let’s get it started in here.
Let’s get it started (ha), let’s get it started in here.
Let’s get it started (ha), let’s get it started in here.
Let’s get it started (ha), let’s get it started in here.
Yeah.
Lose control, of body and soul.
Don’t move too fast, people, just take it slow.
Don’t get ahead, just jump into it.
Ya’ll here a body, two pieces to it.
Get stutted, get stupid.
You’ll want me body people will walk you through it.
Step by step, like you’re into new kid.
Inch by inch with the new solution.
Trench men hits, with no delusion.
The feeling’s irresistible and that’s how we movin’.
Yo Pedrito, ya coulda fooled me.
“U.S. IS AMONG THE ONES ACTIVILY LOOKING FOR A PEACEFUL RESOLUTION”
Where pray tell do all of Israel’s “smart” bombs come from? I think you have a conflict of interest here. You’re just proving to be such tender cow, you’ll go well with RICE. Aint that right, Leeza?
You have posted song lyrics for “Let’s get it started in here” by the Black Eyed Peas. Copyright 2004 Interscope Records. Now unless you have the rights to publish it you are in copyright violation. I will be placing a call to notify Interscope of this violation and giving them your screen name.
Have a nice day!
J,
If you don’t understand the difference between an adjective and a noun, I can’t help you.
I will be placing a call to notify Interscope of this violation and giving them your screen name.
Bravo! Try catching the Green Lantern. You know, “in darkest day, in darkest night, no evil shall escape my sight…”
Did you folks know that america only spent $600,000 investigating the 911 attacks while tax payers wasted $15 Million trying to uncover the earth-shattering mystery of Clinton’s extramarittal sex life?
Smartalix
First.
You are being condescending.
Second.
I DO
Third.
It is irrelevant and you are playing semantics! An insult does not have to be in the form of a noun. Words can be offensive even if they are adjectives describing someone’s “performance” Your adjective “incompetent” refers to the character of an individual which is every bit as offensive as calling them an idiot.
Anytime you want to put your education or knowledge up against mine you just let me know. LOL
Unless you are a member of Intertel you might want to keep your snide comments to yourself.
You must be real proud of yo’ self Mr Alix Cus now us ilitrrit peopl know we is dum!.
If you think you have reached some superior position in literature by publishing a book through Lulu you might want to put yourself in check.