Hot dicussion of the month! Last Move to top.
The biggest problem with any conspiracy theory is that for any real questions there are a dozen hair-brained ideas as to what happened. No matter what happened on 9/11, the event has become a new Kennedy assassination in the lore of possible conspiracies, with theories ranging from stupidity and a failure of leadership in the face of direct warnings to an Operation Northwoods-type government operation. Those making accusations carry varying levels of credibility, further muddying the waters of the debate.
Kevin Barrett believes the U.S. government might have destroyed the World Trade Center. Steven Jones is researching what he calls evidence that the twin towers were brought down by explosives detonated inside them, not by hijacked airliners.
These men aren’t uneducated junk scientists: Barrett will teach a class on Islam at the University of Wisconsin this fall, over the protests of more than 60 state legislators. Jones is a tenured physicist at Brigham Young University whose mainstream academic job has made him a hero to conspiracy theorists.
According to polls, some Americans believe in 9/11 conspiracy theory.
With the fifth anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks quickly approaching, skepticism about the circumstances surrounding the tragedy is strong, as one in three Americans believe officials in the federal government either assisted or took no action to stop the attacks, according to a recent survey. About 36 percent of the 1,010 respondents in a national Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll said that they thought U.S. government officials were involved in the Sept. 11 atrocities because they wanted the U.S. to go to war in the Middle East.
Some accusations come from unusual sources.
The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)’s publishing arm has released a book that says President Bush organized New York’s Sept. 11 attacks. The decision by the 160-year-old Westminster John Knox Press, the trade and academic publishing imprint of the Presbyterian Publishing Corp., to attribute the attacks on the World Trade Center brings into the U.S. religious mainstream a conspiracy theory long held by the world’s jihadists.
In ‘Christian Faith and the Truth behind 9/11: A Call to Reflection and Action,’ author David Ray Griffin calls the United States the world’s ‘chief embodiment of demonic power, says he initially scoffed at 9/11 conspiracy theories.
Of course, there are also many who dismiss conspiracies. There are a number of people loudly decrying conspiracy theories, so not all the noise is from those thinking the government was behind 9/11.
So what do you think? Ignorance, conspiracy, or terrorist act?
Yikes! How could the conspiracy theorists possibly believe that a government that can’t keep NSA telephone spying secret could keep this secret? You’re absolutely dead on with the comment that this has become “a new Kennedy assassination in the lore of possible conspiracies.”
How did they get an airliner thru that 12 foot hole in the Pentagon?I smell something and it ain’t roses Maynard.
If the choice is between stupidity and incompetence on the one hand and a truly masterful government conspiracy on the other… After one look at the idiots running things, my money’s on stupidity.
well, you can’t forget that it was all setup during clinton’s term…
oh, wait, nm…
While I accept the notion that the government (particularly this administration!) are not clever enough to have pulled it off, there are still a number of unanswered questions that point to a more complex reality than the official story. There seems to be visual evidence of explosions that came before the collapse of the towers and the notion that a plane hit the Pentagon and then simply vaporized on impact is patently absurd. I’m not saying that this points to conspiracy, I just think that we don’t have all the facts of what happened on that day.
Yeah, how DID they get an airliner through that 12 foot hole. There is mounting evidence that it was really a US missile that hit the Pentagon and not an airliner! Just check the web and see for yourself!
Also, all the eye witnesses that actually saw a plane slam into the Pentagon are all either lying or were hallucinating. They only THINK they saw a big jetliner fly into the Pentagon…because it’s just too ludicrous to think a bunch of yahoos stole a plane and rammed it into the building. I mean, come on.
Oh, and all the missing people that were supposed to have been on that plane (which we know was really a missile), have all been “disappeared” by the Government. Either that, or all the families of those people are all lying and saying their loved ones didn’t ever come back.
Come on..which could be pulled off easier and makes more sense? It’s pretty obvious. You could go with the completely insane thinking that a bunch of idiots just hijacked a few planes and rammed them into buildings (really, can’t stop laughing, that’s just so stupid, who could pull that off?). Or you could go with the completely logical and believable thinking that a massive government cover-up is behind these planes and missiles slamming into these buildings, the WTC being all packed with explosives by invisible people that planted all of it without anyone seeing or noticing anything, having a missile that sprays hallucination spray all over the area to make eye-witesses see a huge airliner instead of a missile, make the people on all 4 airliners that crashed that day disappear, and the hundreds of people that all must have had a hand in all of this not say a single word to anyone. Makes sense to me.
/sarcasm off
#7 – you had me going for a second there 🙂
Ok, now here’s a question that literally popped into my head. Keep in mind that I don’t buy into the conspiracy theories, but of course there are things the government isn’t telling us (that’s always going to be the case, the public tends to be on a “need to know” basis). This country has libel and defamation laws, right? If these allegations that Bush architected and carried out the 9/11 attacks are not true, couldn’t he sue for libel / defamation of character, prove the theorists wrong, and stop all of this nonsense?
This just goes to show that if you lie to the public often enough they won’t believe you even if you are telling the truth. Way to go government!
Well, it’s good to see that conspiracies are alive and well among the dumbest among us.
It all comes back to one thing – most conspiracy believers are either idiots (don’t underestimate the gullibility of the people), won’t believe that any Muslim could do such a heinous thing, or believe the government does any bad thing that happens, especially those republicans – they’re eeevvviiillll.
As to the question on libel/slander – President Bush could never sue for it, mostly because of much previous case law allowing people to say a whole lot of crazy things. Especially as an elected politician, proving libel or slander is almost impossible. It’s the downside of free speech – people can usually say whatever they want.
As to all these “strange objects”, “missile hit the pentagon”, “where are the flight recorders”, bombs inside the trade center”, etc – these are the same people who see a human face in that picture on mars, and believe the moon landing was faked.
I believe the government was lax in fighting terrorism prior to 9/11 – and for that they should be held responsible.
Our number one problem is, and has always been, we are too worried with hurting peoples feelings (profiling, for example) and not worried enough with getting the job done.
To #10 – take your pills. And FYI – there weren’t dancing Israelis, those were ARAB MUSLIMS. Jeez.
To #11 – touche! Well put!
#13. Arab muslims? proof?
What about WTC7? What about the rest of the post. And I only smoke pot! I don’t touch pills.
#13. Here’s my proof..
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0622-05.htm
Three things:
1. There was no independent 9/11 investigation, the 9/11 investigators were blocked by Bush.
2. Bush wanted to go in Iraq before 9/11, so when he got to learn that his friend Bin Laden was planning an attack, he let it happen. Because Bush really is so evil he would let people die, even americans, as long as he can reach his goal.
3. Before 9/11 Bush has very bad rating, such an event happening in New York is only good for Bushes agenda and ratings. Since 9/11 he has been able to pass all his laws, tax cuts, wars always using 9/11 as the brief state of mind of a conservative to support whatever he does. Bush needed something to occupy the public oppinion while he spy on democrats to win more elections, while he spends trillions on war and tax cuts to oil companies and while he goes around the world killing and letting die hundreds of thousands of people so he can get his oil cheaper and put more money in his war profiteering enterprise.
I see it as two options…
Option 1:
9/11 was simply a thorrible ragedy carried out by an extremist group who was fortunate enough to accomplish their goal
Option 2:
One of the greatest coverups, frauds and deceptions the world has ever seen. Conducted on a public controlled by media and infiltrated by governement operatives at all levels.
If it is option II – there is no hope … a torpedo down the exaust shaft of the death star won’t be enough.
Either way- I just want my family to be safe and healthy – and have enough freedom to practice my religeon.
We’re talking semantics here. One nation’s “terrorist” is another nation’s “freedom fighter”. One nation’s “pre-emptive strike” is another nation’s “unprovoked attack”. Patriot or revolutionary? Traitor or savior? Lunatic or visionary?
Likewise, is it a “conspiracy theory” or “classified government operation”? And what does “government” mean? Does it mean “duly elected representatives” or “those in actual control”?
I agree that our “duly elected representatives” in this country pretty much look like the Keystone Cops, running around in circles, beating people randomly with billy clubs, and scratching their heads while looking at the camera. “Gee willikers!”, as Donny Rumsfeld might say. But are those Keystone Cops our real government? I’m just asking, because I really don’t know. And who says it’s OUR government, anyway. Even if we (US-ians) are truly governed by a smirking fratboy, there ARE a few competent, efficient, and essentially ruthless governments elsewhere, which have repeatedly demonstrated over the last 40 years, the ability to plan and execute, in complete secrecy and on a worldwide scale, operations that could be legitimately called “conspiracies” in every sense of the word.
Ok, well, I can only think of one, actually, but I won’t say who.
*cough* israel *cough*.
All the people who were supposedly on those planes were drugged unconscious and all woke up in ice-filled bathtubs in hotels in Romania and Bulgaria, with massive pain in their lower back, a strange scar, and a note explaining that their kidneys had been harvested.
Well, I don’t have any inside info, but the whole thing flunks the smell test. If the Presbyterians have looked into it and concluded that it’s a conspiracy, that is good enough for me
1. As for both WTC collapsing one after the other in this way is very suspicious, simply put a scientist on the job and he would tell you this is suspicious. Problem is Bush is blocking any scientist from getting the actual documents on the WTC architecture and plans.
2. WTC had hundreds of billions worth in Gold in banks inside the WTC. No word on what happened with this gold. Did Bush just take all that gold?
3. Why does Osama bin Laden appear on tv the day before the 2004 election, telling people he supports Kerry, thus people reacted thinking Kerry is a terrorist and went voting for Bush.
4. Why are no bodies independantly reported found at Pentagon and Pennsylvania crash sites.
5. Why does father Bush still hang out with Bin Ladens at Berkshire Hathaway and other oil-related multi-billion investor meetings.
And what, precisely, is this “visual evidence of explosions” of which you speak, Vagus?
“Named” –
You’re either an idiot or a liar, and probably a combination of both, if you claim you’ve never seen the explanation for the collapse of Building 7.
#10,
If I could choose my dystopia, I’ll pick Huxlerian over Orwellian every time. That way at least I know I’ll get decent gin.
What “scientists” were blocked from seeing the plans for the WTC, Charbax?
The gold (and silver) in the WTC was recovered two months later. So much for that silly theory.
And there are pictures of wreckage (very large pieces of wreckage) around the Pentagon
Can you provide links to a few? I’ve only found one photo showing a relatively small piece of painted aluminum that could have come from just about anything, including a delivery truck.
25. Why a liar? I asked questions, not gave an interview. I may be an idiot, but so what? You didn’t answer the question either! If it was “pulled”, which is what PBS had declared, doesn’t it seem interesting that it collapsed in exactly the same manner as WTC1 and 2? Sure seems interesting to me! Anyhoo, sticks and stones Frank… Sticks and stones. You can call me all the names you want. You’re still a pansy, homophobic, racist, facist, commie, crack-smoking, ass selling, biatch. See? Just words…
I agree with #20 about #14. I have seen plenty of pics with wreckage. Some of the conspiracy theory video show jet engine parts that they try to make you believe is a missile part but simply looking at a schematic of the jet engine shows an identical part.
Of course facts will no convince conspiracy theory nuts. I actually have read a lot about this on both sides and think it was planes that crashed into the Pentagon and WTC because of the evidence.
I have a good friend that believes all these conspiracy theories about 911, and I think he thinks that because he sees “the Truth” he is more intelligent then those of us that dismiss the 911 conspiracy theories. I wonder how many of the pro theory people here feel that way.
Dennis –
It sounds like you are totally ignorant of the geography of Washington DC.
The Pentagon is in Virginia, across the river, and several miles from the touristy areas of downtown Washington.
And the plane that hit the Pentagon hit on the southwest, which faces away from downtown washington, so if it were not already several miles from downtown washington, and not already obscured by the lush parkland on either side of the Potomac river, the impact still could not be seen from the touristy areas.
With nuts like Dennis and “Named”, it’s quantity, not quality of evidence. And any evidence that does not fit their wacky scenarios is ignored.
33. Frank frank frank… Sticks and stones. You get so defensive maybe you caused the attack! I just ask questions and you get worked up like a crack whore in a federal detention centre!
Anyhoo, it matters not what happend, or how. The real pertinent question and one worthy of a cage match is “why?”
As a minister for the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) I thought I’d include this link from the Presbyterian Publishing Corporation about the book in question:
https://www.ppcbooks.com/Why.asp
I have argued many a night with 9/11 conspiracy theorists. It generally comes down to two points:
1. All the evidence provided by conspiracy theorists is circumstantial. None of it is solid and none of it would stand up in a court of law. When this fact is mentioned, the typical response is, “They destroyed all the evidence.”
2. Where is the evidence of the conspirators actually devising or implementing their plot? Who exactly are the conspirators? Most conspiracy theorists simply respond “the government.” That does not work. I have yet to see any evidence along these lines. All other coincidences and evidence are irrelevant without evidence of the people actually planning and/or conducting their plot.