This is a documentery movie review by David Byrne of Talking Heads fame. Taking into account that documentaries generally have some sort of slant or agenda so may not present all sides, this is still a rather frightening subject. But given how out of touch with reality many fundamentalists have become, not unexpected. Jesus would have been appalled at what’s being done in his name. Don’t try to tell it to these kids once they’ve grown up indoctrinated, though. They might kill you with God’s love.
Saw a screening of a documentary called Jesus Camp. It focuses on a woman preacher (Becky Fischer) who indoctrinates children in a summer camp in North Dakota. Right wing political agendas and slogans are mixed with born again rituals that end with most of the kids in tears. Jesus CampTears of release and joy, they would claim — the children are not physically abused. The kids are around 9 or 10 years old, recruited from various churches, and are pliant willing receptacles. They are instructed that evolution is being forced upon us by evil Godless secular humanists, that abortion must be stopped at all costs, that we must form an “army” to defeat the Godless influences, that we must band together to insure that the right judges and politicians get into the courts and office and that global warming is a lie.
There were some perfect sound bites — at one point Pastor Fischer instructs the little ones that they should be willing to die for Christ, and the little ones obediently agree. She may even use the word martyr, which has a shocking echo in the Middle East. I can see future suicide bombers for Jesus — the next step will be learning to fly planes into buildings. Of course, the grownups would say, “Oh no, we’re not like them” — but they admit that the principal difference is simply that “We’re right.”
In another scene a cardboard cutout of George W. Bush, with his trademark smirking smile, is brought out and the children are urged to identify — many of the little ones come forward and reverently touch his cardboard hands.
[…]
They want to turn the U.S. into the “Christian” version of Iran or Saudi Arabia. A theocracy.
This kind of garbage has been going on for a long time. However, like all things, it (ironically) has been evolving. I’m really not sure the rational side has been evolving as quickly. Really, combined with youth apathy and overall American indifference, I am not seeing the way to stop these forces from dominating the political landscape for years to come. Most conservatie christians I know are just people trying to live their lives in peace. Sure, they want SUV’s and plastic-looking children, but they are relatively harmless. But they vote. And there is a real risk that they will fall in line somewhat unintentionally with the wackos.
The only hope I can see through this dire picture is that generally speaking the religious nuts invariably go too far. They always seem to screw themselves and reveal their true levels of insanity. Lately, though, it seems like they are getting stronger than ever.
I wish your fear of nutcases extended to those secular as well.
There are ways of dying for Christ that usually mean no one dies but you, not your suicide scenario.
“On the 9th of August, 1943, Franz Jaegerstaetter, a devout Austrian Christian pacifist, was beheaded by German Christians for refusing to fight and kill in Hitler’s army. Because of his conscientious objection to war and killing, he had been abandoned by his bishop and pastor, as well as by his family and friends, all of whom had tried to convince him to do his patriotic duty and kill for “Volk, Führer und Vaterland.” (lewrockwell.com)”
Usually people die for another diety, the state, and no one questions it.
I agree. Most people who say they would die for their religion mean that they will endure persecution and execution for it, not that they would kill others who do not believe the way they do.
I’ve been in the unique position to live among and get to know both Muslim and Christian fundamentalists.
One thing both groups have in common is a deep-felt belief that their “way of life is under attack.” This message is preached to them constantly in churches, mosques, bible schools and madrassas
(If you haven’t heard this preaching think of Fox’s bogus “War on Christmas” last year).
Both groups would deny vigorously that they are militant or violent. They are — after all — just defending themselves! Which, they claim, is their right since their way of life is under attack!
One of the funniest things happening around this film [to me] is that distributorship of the film has changed in midstream. The original group sold it to an arthouse distributor who figured — instantly — we can make big bucks showing this in Xhristian markets where we usually make squat.
Unfortunately for them, Michael Moore had also acquired a copy of the print to be shown at his annual film festival in Flint. Now, in truth, it was being shown as a straight-up example of a documentary — no beforehand analysis — leaving it up to viewers to decide on content.
But, the new distributors jumped through every legal hoop possible to try to stop the showing because the association with Michael Moore will push the hot button on what passes for a brain on every dittohead and Jesus freak in the Xhristian markets — and they won’t make as much geedus.
“… the worst are full of passionate intensity.”
– W.B. Yeats, The Second Coming
2: “Usually people die for another diety, the state, and no one questions it.”
How true. Indeed, people even consider it to be noble and rewardable, while religious martyrdom is often soon forgotten.
5: How the heck do you pronounce “Xhristian”? Rather phlegmy, wot?
6: Actually, it’s a nutjob factory.
According to the teachings of Jesus as a described in the New Testament, “dying for Christ” is much different from “dying for Islam”. He stated that those willing to lose their life for his sake would gain eternal rewards. This sounds much like Islam.
However, he made it rather clear that he meant a passive civil disobedience, a lesson grasped by men such as Gahndi and others. This is also evident by his statement “Those who live by the sword will die by the sword”, made on the day of his arrest. Unlike the philosophy of a suicide bomber, whose chief goal is to bring violent harm to others.
This is a lesson that has been lost by the neocons. However, if the writer of this article and some of you could look beyond your ignorance and hate, you’d realize that words such as “martyr” and “army” have much different connotations among different groups.
Don’t agree? Look at the countries around the world that have the word “democratic” in their name somewhere, and compare them to the Democratic party. The same word means an entirely different thing to the different cultures.
9: “However, if the writer of this article and some of you could look beyond your ignorance and hate, you’d realize that words such as “martyr” and “army” have much different connotations among different groups.”
I don’t understand what you are trying to say here.
This will drive as many kids away from their faith as it will to develop crazies.I have 12 years of catholic education to back this p.o.v.
I’ve just always found it amazing all these people who believe they are right to judge and punish others’ sins. It’s almost as crazy as the Catholic dogma that says one human can offer God’s forgiveness to another human.
#10:
My wording could have been better. What I meant to say was this: “martyr” to the Christian faith means someone who dies in *passive* resistance for his faith- usually by excecution by local authorities or others opposed to their beliefs, often for refusing to denounce their beliefs or attempting to spread them to others.
To a Muslim, however, a “martyr” is one who dies fighting the infidel, or one who does not recognize Allah as the one true god.
Read about the “top martyrs” of both faiths, and how they suposedly died. You’ll see a stark contrast.
Hence, the “Future Suicide Bombers for Christ” indicates either ignorance or intentional misleading on the part of the author.
13: Thanks for the clarification. I do agree that the title of the article is rather leading.
I agree that the definition of “martyr” is subjective. You generalise Christianity and Islam a great deal. I belong to neither religion, but am familiar with both. Referring to your definitions of “martyr”, martyrs of the first definition are by no means restricted to Christianity. They can be found in many religions, including Islam. I know of one example, a Muslim who was even killed by Muslims! Also, martyrs of the second definition (generalised) are not limited to Islam. Participants in the Crusades were “martyrs” as well. It just depends which side you are on, and who is pointing the finger.
Call it what it IS.
Indoctrination..
“Hence, the “Future Suicide Bombers for Christ” indicates either ignorance or intentional misleading on the part of the author.”
The title was taken from a line Byrne write in the article. I used it because I think it is quite a good description of someone who has twisted Christianity to where the next step up from bombing abortion clinics and killing abortion doctors is suicide bombings. You can argue that they aren’t true Christians anymore, but to their mind they are and that such actions are needed to achieve their aims. They might believe they are martyrs in that they are dying doing Jesus’ work, which is just another perversion of what He taught.
I think ECA has it right, but doesn’t go far enough. It is indoctrination by turning a regular religion into a cult with all the mind fuck aspects that entails. And when you go further to where children are taught from birth to believe this is the only way so they know no other life and aren’t exposed to “the real world’ with differing ideas and what Christianity is supposed to really be about, it’s easy to make those kids grow up into terrorists for Christ, if you will.
Nutballs to a person. And what’s scary is that if you get this stuff thrown at you constantly you start believing it unless you have a solid moral underpinning too. You really have to step back, try to observe yourself from the outside and reevaluate.
One thing popular here in the southern U.S. and maybe elsewhere too, is “lock-ins” where everyone stays up all night and talks about how wonderful Jesus is or some such sillyness. You get disoriented of course, don’t get much but some starchy foods and everyone ends up crying because of some sort of manufactured catharthis. In short, it’s a mini-brainwashing session. And yet, everyone says this is great and they had a good time. It really is a small brainwashing session.
I hope I can teach my own kids to be clear-headed enough not to fall for this junk. The first step will be not sending them to any of these camps, that’s for sure.
Makes me think of the anonymous quote:
“Give me a child for the first seven years, and you may do what you like with him afterwards.”
The disturbing part is that it also reminds me of these:
“He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future.”
“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it”
“It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.”
“All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.”
Which – according to thinkexist.com – are all atributed to Adolf Hitler.
http://tinyurl.com/qfq6k
I’m from North Dakota and I’ve never heard of this Jesus Camp. I’m appalled that something like this exists. I’m especially disgusted that this is happening in my home state. Most people here are moderate and level headed. I’d like to know exactly where this camp operates. It must operate somewhat under the radar since I don’t know of anyone who has heard of this camp.
I’ve said it before, organized religion is evil. More people have been killed in the history of man over religion then for any other cause.
MMM i still believe the only way is to have all people of faith spade or neutered .
I do not fully understand how anyone can read all the things that Jesus says in the New testament and still think He would want any person to hurt any other person in any way. He makes it pretty clear if you ask me and I have studied the Bible for more than 30 years.
Oh and I am certain the He “is” appalled at what people do in His name, year after freaking hypocritical year for the last 2 millennia.
quote: “I think ECA has it right, but doesn’t go far enough. It is indoctrination by turning a regular religion into a cult with all the mind fuck aspects that entails. And when you go further to where children are taught from birth to believe this is the only way so they know no other life and aren’t exposed to “the real world’ with differing ideas and what Christianity is supposed to really be about, it’s easy to make those kids grow up into terrorists for Christ, if you will.”
When you force outlandish theoretical ideas on children as fact whom agree to believe it, where would you reasonably expect these “religious” beliefs to taper off? It’s like offering an addictive drug to someone and telling them to use it in moderation. Once you “accept” it, your world starts to form around it rather than it being ammended to the reality of the world. It’s for all intents and purposes …a disease that is spread through verbal contact. They talk how their way of life is being attacked but what they really mean is their ability to spread their [beliefs] “disease” is being hindered. They have no problem working to destroy the “way of life” of atheists or agnostics with their “book of facts” but yet they cry foul when people take a cynical look at what they are spreading as truth.
Backwards compatibility doesn’t work in evolutionary and revolutionary change and people need to get over their historical cultural beliefs if society is ever to evolve forward from here. ( ie. It’s like Windows being required to run compatibly with DOS apps forever). It slows progress of moving forward to work in a legacy environment. It’s ok to review history but not live in it especially if the authenticity of that history can’t even be verified. This legacy living is the current problem in the Middle East and everywhere else old world religious beliefs remain current. If people would be able to just accept these religious ideas as simple theories, we would all be better off.
For an interesting look at organised religion, read “Small Gods” by Terry Pratchett. A fantastic book.
25: I’m sure you would be surprised to know that some cultures with “old world religious beliefs” would consider you backward, and your ideas to be simple theories.
27: Why would I be surprised when I’m stating that this is the exact problem and exists everywhere people hold strict religious beliefs? Anything that can’t be proven factually is a theory yet they believe all this stuff without question. No doubt that they would refute my logical approach and dismiss me because they can’t see the world any other way once they adopt [any single one of] these baseless ideas as facts and truth.
BTW, how can my approach be “simple theories” when all I’m saying is to keep open minded until someone can show an ounce of VALID proof? Your defensiveness is just proving my point on people being close-minded to alternative approaches once you give in to a single theory.
28: I don’t know how you can see defensiveness in that one sentence. I was pointing out something that I know from experience.
When I spoke about backwardness and simple theories, I was talking about your idea that religion is merely a historical cultural belief, and that it needs to be discarded to progress. There are many cultures who would regard this as a simple, backward theory, as it has been proposed and discussed before.
You ask for proof, which is a valid request. However, you seem to be demanding SCIENTIFIC proof, and a single proof at that. This is a problem, because material science and religion are not similar enough to require one type of proof for the other. In material science, the shortest distance between two points may be a straight line, and that’s all that one needs to know, but in religion the shortest distance between two points is different for every single person.
Please note that my responses are not grounded in popular Christianity or Islam. I subscribe to neither one.
Are we talking about a movie here? An invention laboriously edited into a whole according to the director’s personal vision?
I started editing video in the early 70s. I really hope nobody believes documentaries are immune from being fiction because somebody labels them ‘documentary.’ That makes as much sense as believing that if you scratch the list of ingredients off a bottle of rat poison, that makes it OK to drink.
What part of excluding religiously-formed thought from the public square is freedom of speech? In this country, we have to let the freaking KKK — the FREAKING KKK, PEOPLE — say whatever they want! People who think “religion=evil” are copping out and joining the torch and mob carrying villagers. And playing into the evildoers hands, to boot. Way to go.
They are using the same degree of discrimination in deciding intelligent from imbecilic as a body-bomb uses in deciding who lives and who dies. Be better than that, please.
The dusty old “religion kills” canard is nonsense. Just saying it pins you into a corner. Note how many people are happy to pin themselves into a corner.
Draw a clear distinction between errant individuals doing evil, and the good ideals themselves and you join the ranks of the clear-thinking. Nobody can speak fairly otherwise. Einstein said “Everything must be made as simple as possible AND NO SIMPLER.”
Buying the “religion kills” sentiment because individuals do evil and insist it’s in the name of the good defined in a religion, is like concluding that “wood kills” and pointing to arson as proof positive because wood is flammable. There is something missing–allowing ANY possibility of good coming from the subject. It’s statistically unrealistic. The wood doesn’t prevent its’ goodness, nor the religion. People do that. We call that one-sided, and unrealistic. How different is saying “religion kills” from saying “_(fill in racial slur)s__ ARE __(fill in personal vice)s__” A lot of people call that behaviour bigotry.
Presenting a slogan to preclude issues requiring critical thought is the knee-jerk hallmark of the unfortunate education system we have. It’s also the basis of propaganda. Careful what you buy and why. So reading the “religion kills” meme in a supposedly moderated discussion is like watching somebody put up a flashing neon “hate religion here” sign on their office building.
Some hide behind a premanufactured elitist view in order to express their hatred for religion as though a perceived popularity justifies that. 100,000 Elvis fans can’t be wrong… Can a lynch mob be wrong? Mirrors show whatever you hold them up to.
People who express their hatred for religion are themselves expressing hatred. Ever notice that? They usually call it “contempt” as though that’s different from hatred.
If you want to get out of the schoolyard mob mentality, read some history and commit to intellectual honesty–the willingness to observe truth anywhere it is found and not just visiting your old familiar haunts. If you consider yourself intellectually fearless, try reading something of the opposing view. People still have to read *sigh* Mein Kampf. They don’t have to agree with it to understand what it says–and what made it important. What about western culture comes from religion? The concept of mercy, for instance?
If you’ve decided to hate religion on principle, learn something about it from people who love it on principle, or else admit that you’re incapable of formulating that rational premise and check your illusions of fair-mindedness at the door. Partial understanding of the opposing viewpoint is one-sided by defintion. That’s what court cases are supposed to do: discovery.
I haven’t seen this movie but its premise alone is a transparently gratuitous slam against Christianity by equating it with the murderous commands of Islam. About right? The intixocating (for some) dramatic effects possible with filmmaking aside, there’s nothing new. Sounds to me like that’s the effect this movie explores: uncritical acceptance of objective disorder, justified by its evildoers through a funhouse-reflection of right and wrong expressed in mal- or deformed consciences, and blamed — one more time — on Jesus. Always dumping on Jesus. Always. Sad how many people think that’s praiseworthy. Bunch of lemmings charging a cliff while the film director shouts “faster, fools, FASTER” through a megaphone. It’s SO been done to death.
“But I’m not a lemming — I’m a FREE THINKER.”
30: Kevin, that was excellent response. Unfortunately, most of the people who need to read it, won’t 🙁
It really is time for more people to speak the truth – that religion is a grotesque danger to the human race. Countless millions have been killed in inquisitions, witch burning, crusades, pogroms, holocausts due to religion.
Those who want to share the fact the “Religion Kills” might be interested in the tshirts and stickers bearing that phrase and a truly interesting graphic depiction on Cafe Press. The URL is http://www.cafepress.com/religionkills
Has anyone here actually seen the movie? I have–it’s not what you are writing about. None of the kids are “brainwashed”, none of them are “shut-out” of mainstream ideas. These are normal kids who happen to put their energy into something other than popular culture and selfishness. In this day and age, what’s wrong with that? I would rather have a child who believes deeply in Jesus Christ than one who walks around living only for his own pleasure.