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Satellite view of the city before and after bombing.
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People are saying that this so called war is between Israel and Lebanon.. But the Lebanon army is not involved yet so basicaly this is a terrorist war.. and both are terrorist´s. The victim from ww2 is paying back the world and being the butcher.. Remember that the Bush family has been recognized to be involved with the Natzi in ww2.. By saying that I think the USA is building up a trapp for Israel to fall into.. After all … its the oil that the americans want..
71. Where was the US or anyone else when Sadaam was killing his people? Tell you where – providing him with sattelite intel for his war of aggression against Iran, that’s where. the whole world (the US included) pointedly looked the other way when Sadaam gassed the Kurds and did all those other nasty things.
so by your calculus, the US is just as useless as the UN.
#68, no, because over reaction is too mild a word. Neither side deserves to be wiped off the face of the earth.
pedro –
In my opinion, the UN was doomed from the start, from the moment it included the Soviet Union, then under Stalin, as one of its founding members.
Israel is using Depleted
Uranium War heads supplied by the US… to make Lebanon uninhabitable
Beirut which is home to 1.5 million people is cut off from water, food and fuel. The cosatline has already been covered by thick oil slick from the bombed elictricuty plant in beirut. Epidimics of diseases will follow.
Don’t let your hate of islam blind you… they are affecting everyone. The moderate muslims who are the majority, the druze and christians
here’s the thing I always wonder about:
in 2000 and 2001, when Israel was fighting against Hamas in the westbank and the Gaza strip, among delivering death sentences by helicopter, the first thing they took out was all state infrastructure. Water, Electricity, Transportation (including a series of precision attacks against the Gaza city airport, financed by the EU) and, most important of all, the Palestine security forces.
This time, what were the first targets? Roads, train lines, water supply, powerplants, ports and airports, bridges etc.
Take down the infrastructure, stop all civilian life. I would assume that an organization that is mostly an underground structure would survive such a situation better than those who dedicated their life to being peaceful, law-abiding civilians. This, effectively, makes Hamas, or now Hizbullah, seem to be the only force that can stand up against Israeli aggression, so many angry young people will join their ranks.
So far the theory: the way Israel wages war at it’s neighbours strengthens the very forces they are trying to destry and destroys the structures that they should strengthen.
In reality, it shows that the Hizbullah rocket attacks have become worse and worse for the people in northern Israel, effectively proving that the Israeli tactics does do nothing for the security of the Israeli people.
In short: the whole f*cking war is a huge failure.
pj
http://www.gush-shalom.org
#58…Sara Hill….your third map…the minute by minute update….I think it will be just ignored by me since the title of it is….*Minute by minute update of the Israeli aggression in Lebanon*….kind betting it’s a bit biased.
Your first map I found interesting, if you would open your anti-Israeli eyes and look at it you might notice that the vast majority og the little red bomb sites are in southern Lebanon, guess where Hezbollah has it’s strength concentrated? If you say….southern Lebanon, you win the tshirt for this hour. Those red sites in the rest of the country are primarily hezbollah controlled areas, roads leading south or to Syria ect.
#64…liesea….if the majority of Lebanese are moderate, then why didn’t they force their goverment(elected since Syria was forced out) to abide by the 2000 agreements where by Israel left southern Lebanon? They were supposed to move the army into southern Lebanon and disarm Hezbollah…..they did neither, now they are paying the price of their foolishness or their complicity.
#75…elijin….your first paragraph is just plain bullshit. My cousin just left Beruit, and the only areas suffering are the southern section and the areas around the airport. Tyre and Sidon are having major difficulties with food and medicine shortages, but thats to be expected since these were Hezbollah strongholds.
In my opinion(worth it’s weight in salt probably) Israel is just waiting for Syria to be foolish enough to do more than put it’s army on high alert 3 times in the last 2 weeks. And if Israel attacks Syria, you will see the same gnashing of teeth and beating of chests all around the middle east as you have the last 2 weeks, but not one of those countries will attempt to stop Israel, just as they haven’t attempted to stop Israel the past 2 weeks….why?…….because they are old line Sunni…and they are praying that Israel harms Hezbollah and the Syrians enough to make them ineffectual for awhile, to save their own necks.
#76…Peter Jakobs….the Hezbollah have been increasing their daily firings into Israel for almost 18 months…..the kidnapping of the soldiers was just the excuse Israel needed to go after them. The Germans have said that the Israeli Intelligence has been watching Hezbollah building up it’s missile cache for a year with shipments from Iran going through Syria. They probably felt that now was the time rather than later to attempt to put a stop to it.
As to the infrastructure, the biggest damage is to power plants and water pumping stations that feed southern Lebanon and south Beruit, because thats where Hezbollahs strength lies…..also any road or airport in or out of those areas to stop movement of reinforcements and supplies. It’s a very sound military plan…..the problem is they may have waited to long, since Hezbollah is causing far more destruction and death than they thought it could.
#69…liesea….Hezbollah gets the right to live from the cease fire. Since they aren’t a soverign nation thats about all they can expect. The U.N. and Hezbollah agreed in 2000 that Hezbollah would disarm and they never did, so this time, they don’t get a choice.
Joshua
Yep, a plan that has proven to be ineffective in any single war against partisans (let’s call them that rather than terrorists for a minute, as it’s more neutral). You can destroy all infrastructure in a place, organizations that are defined by the fact that they operate by small, fast moving, distributed teams do not need the same kind of infrastructure that a large army with tanks and fuel depots and airfields needs.
Those great armies, whether the American or the Israeli one, should know better after Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine (and you might add the soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the German attack on Yugoslavia, the guerillas of central america, heck even Vietname) that this “sound military plan” doesn’t work in those cases. It just destroys the place and makes civilians suffer or kills them. Get over it, the old military tactics don’t work with enemies of that kind. The time of large-scale tank battels are over but the military leaders havn’t noticed.
pj
Well,
Let’s at least get some facts straight:
1. The war was started by the Hezbollah which started shooting and firing rockets at civilians while kidnapping those two soldiers. This wasn’t a “clean” put your hands up scenario kidnapping. It was done during a major attack which killed people as well.
2. I’m not sure how much the Hezbollah really cares about Lebanon (as a country). It takes its order from Iran and I think that Iran’s goals might differ from Lebanon in a lot of respects.
3. Yes, innocents are getting killed on both sides. It’s a war zone that ranges from Israel’s north to Lebanon south.
4. The war is not about the US or the relationship between the US and Israel (or Lebanon for that matter). It’s about a sovereign country defending its borders from an attack (which, I feel the odd need to remind you again, happened)
And the rest of the justifications: mine maps, prisoners, Shava farm (which actually belong to Syria), etc… There are diplomatic ways of getting answers and solutions. For some reason Lebanon did not try them.
I think that Lebanon is paying the price for letting a terrorist organization (and I’m sorry, I won’t call them guerillas since they are not fighting in their own government. They are fighting a foreign country) move around freely in its country and in this case, letting it decide their “foreign policy”.
And yes, unfortunately the innocent civilians on both sides of the border are paying the price.
#2 I have no sympathy for the adult shia that are being killed, it’s the kids I feel bad about since they have no choice but to live where mom and dad put them.
Well, at least you have a little humanity left. As for me, I have sympathy for all innocent victims, regardless of age.
I wonder how some of you Israel apologists would feel if it was YOUR apartment bombed and YOUR family killed because Israel wanted to get someone near you?
I’ll try an analogy, even though I’m sure people will nit-pick it apart to avoid the truth of it.
What if you lived in an apartment building and some people were harboring crimminals inside. Maybe those crimminals are even shooting at the police.
The police department decides, then, to BOMB THE WHOLE FIGGIN’ BUILDING to save them the effort and danger of going inside and getting the individuals.
How would you feel? Would you feel that YOUR FAMILY deserved to die because bad guys were hiding in your building?
(I AM NOT a Hezbollah sympathizer by the way. Just an innocent victim sympathizer. So please don’t accuse me of that. )
#77 you’re obviously not lebanese… do you work in the israeli army . joshua a fine jewish name it is.. no lebanese actually call their children this.
The destruction of the infrastructure throughout lebanon is obvious. to anyone that does not watch fox news or cnn.
Beirut.. has been cut off from the north, the south and the east and the west by sea. 2 days ago, the israelis hit the christian areas, the only link that was left out of beirut.
2 weeks earlier every truck was targeted by israeli warplanes to the po
food can go into beirut… so food is in short supply.
there is 1 day of fuel left, and israel is blocking humanitarian, fuel and food supplies
well worth reading:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1154819859
pj
Boing 747 with 450 passangers is flying in 30.000 ft.. Israel intelligence has found out there is few hezbollah in that same plane.. Israel desided to shoot is down to take out thos few man.. Saying to the world that they had to do that and all the inocent passangers that where on the plane are casulties of war..
Its the same thing that they are doing in Beirut.. and please dont tell me that this war started out when hezbollah took 2 Israel soldiers.. How many times you people think Israel intelligence whent into Beirut and took some hezbollah..
Im in Europe and I really dont care of those terrorist in the Hezbollah.. and I dont think to much of the Israel.. I think they are more dangerous then north-Korea, Iran, Syra all together.. But Im worried that if other muslim countries will join this war that it would be the beginning of the ww3 as it is told in the bible. just for you fanatics.. Im not a religous person.. and sorry for the spelling.. english is my second language..
it’s sickeming to see you all argue who of the opposing sides is morally right. War is never ever morally right. In every war, innocent young men (and women) are sent off to die for some often obscure goal. War always requires diabolizing the enemy, as even most soldiers wouldn’t be able to kill a human being across the devide. War always requires propaganda. War is always dirty. There is no morally good or bad in war, only bad. Simple and sad.
Remember those 20 or so israeli fighter pilots who refused to fire air to ground missiles at palestine cities? Those people were acting on the grounds of morality and they were penalized for it.
So much for the ethics of war.
In this case, what is even worse, ethics and lives are being sacrificed for nothing. Imagine the best possible outcome of this war and you’ll probably see that it’s about as optimistic as the outcome of the Iraq war. Why do leaders think that freedom and peace can be brought to the world by killing and suppressing people? Israel is definitively not gaining much support in Lebanon.
pj
At the Last Day, Jesus will return to wage war against Satan and his followers. Do you think this is morally wrong? What do you think defines morals? What you belive or think.. What the Majority things/feels or what the Bible says?
Pedro >>2) Armies are not trained like policemen, so when they get into action, they behave like military.
But there are rules of war and war crimes. Armies don’t have a green light to kill any thing or any one.
Clearly Hezbollah fighters are commiting war crimes by hiding in the civilian areas.
But it seems pretty clear the Israel is also guilty of not minimizing civilian deaths, which is the obligation of every army in any conflict, even with terrorists.
Wayne,
who’s that Bible you’re taking about?
I’m an atheist. The Bible is a collection of tales of which many are based on ancient ethics. Specifically the old testament is full of apartheit and fighting and revenge. There’s little ethics to be found there.
As for what I said above, my benchmark for morality is pretty simple: killing people is immoral. I would actually go further and say that killing is immoral, but that would open a whole grey area that doesn’t belong to this complex.
pj
By the way, Pedro, (or anyone else), how would you feel if a foreign country BOMBED YOUR WHOLE APARTMENT BUILDING and KILLED YOUR WHOLE FAMILY to get some guys who might be in the basement?
Would it make you insanely bitter and much more willing to join a group to fight them?
Mark my words, this is going to bite Israel in the butt and probably America too. (And Rush Limbaugh will somehow blame it on Clinton!)
GregAllen,
You need to get past the simplistic view that “war is immoral” and “innocents are being killed!” It is hard to argue that war is moral…in the short run. However, there are times when you must fight to protect yourself. By your reckoning, both sides in World War II were immoral for engaging in that war and you would be right to an extent. But I shutter to think of the outcome had we not stood up and fought. There is no question that people die in wars including innocent people. Families are torn apart and homes are destroyed. It is what makes war a thing to avoid. However, there are times when you cannot just sit back and do nothing. If you are in a country under attack, then no place including your apartment building should be considered safe from attack.
#77
in a response to joshua
how can you force hezbollah to disarm if it can fight and destroy the lebanese army within hours? if hezbollah is much stronger than us, we lebanese had no choice but to accept him or start a civil war.
hezbollah’s followers are multiplying ( they f**k faster than rabbits what do you expect) , and are taking over lebanon.
personally i dont mind if israel can wipe out hezbollah ( lots of ppl think that way in lebanon dont be shoked), but the way of doing it is wrong. destroying infrastructures and roads and bridges is not solving anything, all of hezbollah’s supplies are underground.
as for the lack of food and gas and water , israel must know that hezbollah has reserves for years to come , it is only hurting the rest of lebanon by doing that.
as you can see , hezbollah’s missiles are still hitting israel daily , so for those of you who watch too much CNN , dont believe everything you see or hear(over 60% of hezbollah’s firing power has been destroyed and all that crap) , because over here we know what the US media shows and what it prefers to hide
so plz find a good tactical way to wipe out hezbollah, or give them their demands (lebanese prisoners , mines maps shebaa , donnow why israel doesnt do it anyway)
because the only thing that is happening in lebanon is pollution, desease , pretty soon hunger and total halt of the country because of the lack of oil .
and stop firing at empty buildings in south beirut , it is just loud noises , do you think hezbolah are that stupid to leave anything in these clear locations?
again, not a hezbollah fan , and i dont have anything against jews, just pointing out facts that are unknown to some CNN brainwashed ppl 🙂
and for the record, yoram #80 , while and after kidnapping the 2 soldiers , hezbollah didnt fire anything in the first 3 days , but israel destroyed almost all the infrastructure in these 3 days, plz get your facts straight , again not from CNN.
as i speak right now , israeli ships just fired at the limit btw muslim and christian areas , killing 10s of civilians , not a hezbollah neighbourhood, i’ve been there many times
This was the problem with Israel’s evacuation. They left Hezbollah to wipe out the few military forces that were there.
will it take 50 years to hear about this wars “enigma machine”?
#93, You need to get past the simplistic view that “war is immoral” and “innocents are being killed!” It is hard to argue that war is moral…in the short run.
A war of aggression can not be so simply shrugged off. To accuse one side of an atrocity which the favored side is doing multiple times over is just plain hypocritical. No matter how you slice it, war is wrong and purposely targeting civilians is even more wrong. In fact, it is covered under the Geneva Convention as a War Crime.
Pedro!.. I wasnt talking about that plane was hijacked.. I was saying that its similar to what Israel is doing now bombing Beirut , getting 1 hezbollah against 50 innocent people.. and shoting down boing 747 with few hezbollah and lots of civilians… and please dont think that thera are 2 groups here.. like one is for Israel and the other for Hezbollah… personal I see 2 terrorist groups here.. I dont stand for either one.. one is fighting with high tech weopons and the other what ever they got…
> A war of aggression can not be so simply shrugged off. To
> accuse one side of an atrocity which the favored side is
> doing multiple times over is just plain hypocritical.
I’m not sure how you define a “war of agression” (as opposed to what?). The Israeli’s are justified in their response. Enemies from a foreign country attacked them. The government in charge of the country from which the attacks occured were either unwilling and/or incapable of stopping the attack so the Israeli’s are going to stop it for them. That’s the price the Lebanese get for not taking a proactive approach in trying to root out these bozos.
> No matter how you slice it, war is wrong and purposely
> targeting civilians is even more wrong. In fact, it is
> covered under the Geneva Convention as a War Crime.
So, by that logic the Founding Fathers were wrong to go to war with Britian, the US was wrong to enter World War I against Germany and against the Japanese and Germans in World War II. Your opinion is naive and I suspect, in the vast minortiy. There are times when going to war is justified and is the right thing to do. As I’m sure you have heard, freedom is not free.
What evidence do you have that the Israeli are specifically and intentionally targeting innocent civilians. There would be absolutely no military benefit. Keep in mind that mistakes or enemies hiding amongst civilians does not qualify as “targeting civilians.”
In every case, the Israeli military is trying differentiate enemy from innocent without compromising their objectives. There is simply no way to conduct a war in a populated area without some innocents being caught in the crossfire. It sucks but that is what happens when you live in a war zone.
This photo has been cited as possibly fraudulent. See
Think about it and decide for your self. Another conspiracy or just negligence and incompetence?
OK, my HTML sucks. Let’s try again.
The Reuters Photo Scandal – A Taxonomy of Fraud
If Spain launched rockets into Paris, France would take full military action. Lebanon is a democracy, Lebanon’s goverment and people have either lost control or promote Hezzobla efforts. Lebanize have
basically earned their losses. The only reason American law allows
people to have guns is the founding fathers realized power can corupt any one. Guns insure Americans stay in control of their goverment.
Isreal cannot win against Hezzbola anymore than America won the
Veit Nam war. Best to take full military action against the rocket suppliers, Iran, Syria. this is a puppet war just like Viet Nam. Bet your last dollar that USA weapons engineers observing weapon usage and performance. This is part of a waiting game. US can’t piss off Arabs because of the oil. When all the oil is gone, Arab states will have to accept modern education of the masses or
become 3rd world countries. In essence Islam must change
or fade out. Have you ever asked your self why countries selling a high priced comodity they get for free still has most of its citizens living in poverty and uneducated, so much so that mass migrations to the west have occured for decades. The oil sheiks keep all the wealth and control the people thru Islam. Should Muslims be held accountable for upholding teaching that promotes killing?
Islamic friends don’t try to defend it, I have read the passages in the
Koran myself. Either you believe entirely in the Koran or not. The Koran incites violence and killing, so does the Old testament. Both
were written in violent times. (Ha Ha, have to laugh at myself, last sentence assumes that our times are not violent.) The war is so unfair to the average Lebonese family just trying to survive and make a living. When I traveled abroad I found one truth, the sense that no matter where you go, people care about their family and just want to
enjoy them. All the big ideas, all the theocratic non-sense, only seems to end up taking away what they cherish most.
Some facts:
Anyone who tries to associate the Biblical “end times” or the appopololiptic end of the earth, is a liar and commits the sin of
arrogance and blasphamy. Jesus himself said “Even I do not know the hour, My father (God) has not said to me”. So the poser
trying to tell you these days are the end or that the 2nd coming is
near is provable by his own base assertions to be false.
To the Lebanese guy whom has commented. If a theoligical faction took control of my country I would fight or leave which ever
had the higher chance of sucess. Crappy choices.
To sit back is to be a pawn in a game you have no control of.
This maybe a dumb question, but why do the Isreali’s wear
uniforms? Why not goe in with civilian clothes, walk straight up
to the rocket launchers? If your caught Hezzbola will kill you no matter what you would wear.