GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz, apparently pushing more
nonsense out of his ass.
General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in an interview this week that GM doubts the benefits of hybrids, but must build them to improve its public image. “Hybrids are technologically of doubtful benefit, and expensive, but necessary from a political and public relations point of view,” Lutz told Just-Auto. “Toyota has said, economically, hybrids make no sense. The reduction in fuel [consumption] does not pay for the technological content and cost of the vehicle so therefore economically it remains fairly nonsensical, so that’s the left-brain analytical argument.”
While all this bluster spews forth you have to wonder why the company is chasing the Hydrogen car instead.
And this is supposed to “help” public relations? They can always find new ways to be sleazy.
These idiots at GM are impressive. They’re world-class idiots. Even if Americans will be the last nation to appreciate vehicles which are inexpensive to operate, GM builds fuel-efficient vehicles in other countries.
I bumped into a road test, last night, of a smallish Vauxhall — English-built and diesel-powered — with a top speed over 100 mph. Enough to get anyone into trouble. And it averaged better than 45 mpg for all-round driving.
Yes, that was after the conversion from Imperial gallons.
The same size as tens of thousands of Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, etc. sold here in the States. All they have to do is produce more of the LH steering verson they export to the Continent — and put ’em on a boat to the US. They pass Euro emissions standards. That excuse is going by the boards. Too complicated for discussion at the GM country club.
He’s right though, at least from the point of view that the consumer will save money by purchasing a hybrid. The overall cost increase of a hybrid engine will negate most of the cost savings on gas even at current prices over time. Unless you are one of those people who drives 50k+ miles a year you aren’t going to see much of a net savings.
However, in terms of overall gasoline usage as a function of our dependence on foreign oil, and as a function of the total amount of pollutants and CO released into the atmosphere that harms the environment, they have a measurably positive impact.
Ok, Mr. GM, I’ll buy your arguement and instead of buying my 2006 Prius at $29k (loaded to the gills with Navigation, Bluetooth integration, leather, the works) and get ~55 mpg, I’ll buy your H2 instead at $50k and get 12 mpg. No problem that gas is going to $4/gallon soon with all this Middle East stuff, no need to worry, right? Makes sense to me…asshat…
With all of the stories coming out lately on how bad hybrids are, can there be any question that the Big 3 auto makers here in the states are just running scared and trying to cut down their competiors with so called “public relations” like this rather than actually making a freakin’ quality car that can compete?
And maintaining five separate automotive divisions and two separate light truck divisions is NOT “nonsensical” and purely for public relations?
#3
Very good point, and I agree 100%. Buying my Prius was not about saving money, if it was I would have kept driving my 7-year old Corolla that was paid off or even bought a new Corolla instead of the Prius. I looked at getting a Prius after I got my Corolla, and I couldn’t justify the extra cost with gas prices as they were at the time ($1.25/gal, ahh, those were the salad days…). It’s about using less gas, using less oil (change out every 6 months instead of 3), and creating less emissions, very well said.
It doesn’t pay in the U.S. because U.S. haven’t signed the Kyoto agreement, so U.S. has no need to inforce, either by taxing or by force of law, emission reductions on CO2 and other pollutants.
Simple.
So the logical argument being put forth is that the extra cost of the initial purchase of a hybrid vehicle, coupled with the marginally higher cost of scheduled maintenance of the same hybrid vehicle, does not offset the reduced cost of the operation of the vehicle in terms of fuel savings when comparaed to a similar, non-hybrid vehicle. This has been supported by every major automotive magazine in print. The Prius, as an example, has around an eight year break-even point. Toyota, under its Lexus arm, also manufactures and sells hybrid vehicles that obtain the same fuel economy statistics as their non-hybrid counterparts, but offer higher performance in terms of acceleration, instead. Lutz is calling a spade a spade.
But to actually have thiese comments made public is another in a series of epic blunders that started with Roger Smith stating that “GM isn’t in the business of making cars. We are in the business of making money.”
If GM survives long enough for Toyota to buy it, I will be surprised.
It doesn’t pay in the U.S. because U.S. haven’t signed the Kyoto agreement, so U.S. has no need to inforce, either by taxing or by force of law, emission reductions on CO2 and other pollutants.
Simple.
And neither do China and India, which are incredible polluters, but are exempt because they are “developing nations”.
Hybrids scaled up to the average American taste in vehicle size may not may economic sense. Like all fuel efficient strategies the technology performs best on lighter vehicles. Any reader from Europe please correct me, but I understand that small diesel cars make more economic sense than hybrids in the European market. Economy will always drive the industry. At $3 per gallon most Americans can still drive larger vehicles, though at a cost. It cut’s into disposable income, but it’s doable. When it gets to $4 and over, some significant changes will have to occur in vehicle choice and technology. Most American forgets that in the UK gasoline is around 1£ per litre. That’s crudely about $7.30 per gallon US.
I understand what he is saying, and I agree with him!
Even if hybrids improve mileage 100%, you are still dependant on all this foreign oil, and what happens in a few years when there are 100% more cars? We are in the same position!
The century of petroleum has to end! Hybrids drag it on, sipping ’till the end.
The real future is electric, and GM has spent BILLIONS on developing their amazing fuel cell/electric vehicles. And THEY are the future, not hybrids. Hybrids are an interim technology, and GM recognized this. What they didn’t realize was how long the interim would be, and how shortsighted and vocal ignorant well meaning ecofreaks would be.
#9 And neither do China and India, which are incredible polluters, but are exempt because they are “developing nations”.
So, if somebody is shitting his/her pants, would you do the same, just to keep you warm for a while …
Seriously, they are developing countries… and US has only 5% of world’s population, yet contribute 25% of CO2 – compare that to China and India.
#11 – Um, didn’t GM kill the electric car?
instead of buying my 2006 Prius at $29k (loaded to the gills with Navigation, Bluetooth integration, leather, the works)
I’m sure that things are better elsewhere, but I was seriously considering buying a Prius until I visited my local Toyota dealer. None in stock. Ok, it’s a hot seller. But not only did they not have one for me to look at or sit in, much less drive, they had no intentions of EVER doing so. Buy one, sight unseen (they pick the color), or don’t. The salesman turned his back on me and walked away before I even got my rant going.
In addition, although 100K powertrain warranty would be generous on most cars, on something as full of new and unproven technology, it essentially means that when your car hits 100,000 miles, its value drops to a fraction. I haven’t been able to find out how much it costs to re-battery the thing, but I’d have to guess it is MANY thousands of dollars. Ditto for replacing any major portion of the electric drive train.
Gimme a diesel with a CVT or dual-clutch tranny. I’ll get out the R1 when I run low on adrenalin. But aside from VW, you can FORGET that option, at least here in the states.
#11 – I’d agree with you, except GM isn’t making pure electric vehicles. They killed the EV-1, didn’t they? And nowhere in his little “PR” talk did this VP ever say word one about pure electric vehicles. He slams hybrids, he slams desiels, both of which GM can’t compete with. His solution is to run the world on E85, not electric vehicles.
We’re not going to be finished with any of this until someone comes out with the Mr. Fusion that we can use to use common trash to create the 1.21 Gigawatts we’ll need to power our cars. Screw gas engines, deisel engines, Hybrid Synergy Drive, give me my Flux Capacitor!
As some of the comments illustrate, this is a pretty emotive subject. Let’s stipulate that Americans should drive more fuel-efficient vehicles. The gas-electric hybrid is not a very efficient means of doing this. Diesel looks far more feasible. Daimler (I think; or it may be BMW) have been investigating steam/gas hybrids which recaptures the lost heat and so is always working as opposed to electric hybrids which only capture the “lost” kinetic energy through braking. In theory, you could drive a hybrid across the coutry and not see any benefit (once the batteries and run out) if you didn’t hit the brakes. When it comes to evaluating these alternative technologies, engaging physics rather than emotion is the best policy.
#14: If you really want a Prius, you can get one (sometimes within days) if you shop around the dealerships. That dealer sounds like one of the poorer ones. But there are lots of Toyota dealerships; you’re not stuck if you don’t want to be.
Re: batteries: I just bought a Prius. everything I’ve read suggests I won’t ever have to replace the traction battery. It comes with a 10year/150K mile warranty (in California), and I’ve never kept a car that many miles. There are stories of Prii going 200K miles without needing a new battery pack. I’ll be replacing the car before I ever think about having to replace the battery, in all likelihood.
I suppose I shouldn’t presume geeks to be gearheads, as well.
RT — “average American taste” means something the size of the most popular car in the US — Toyota Camry. Now available as a hybrid. Motor World’s longterm test averages all-round 42 mpg and climbing.
xray — Prius has been in the US heading towards 6 years. NO Toyota dealer has yet been asked to replace a battery set. Orig. est. replacement price was $4500. As economics of production scaled up, that dropped to $3K. There’s no reason for that decline to halt.
I guess Ryan’s on vacation — so, we haven’t our usual diesel expert on hand. But, I imagine he’d agree that as great as a diesel can be — there also is a market for diesel-hybrids in the passenger car market as well as trucks.
In another stellar biz decision, GM recently sold their interest in Fuji Heavy Industry and their battery division — to Toyota.
Toyota engineers — who have a track record of being about as conservative as the company — designed the battery set for a minimum target of 180,000 miles.
btw — adding a strictly supplemental electric motor doth not a hybrid make. GM doesn’t yet offer a hybrid.
My girlfriend and I ordered our 2006 Prius on a Monday and got it the next Monday. We had to choose three colors and one package option (we went with package 5 to get the Bluetooth but didn’t need the Navigation). The dealer we found was the only dealer in the entire Southeast of the US that did not charge a premium for the car. We did not buy the Prius to save overall money, it was mostly because it is an Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle (AT-PZEV) and we are a couple of tree-huggers. My future plans are to install solar panels on the roof of the house and use this power to charge my $80,000 Tesla Roadster (www.teslaroadster.com) all-electric 0-60 in 4 seconds planet-saving high-performance sports car. The future really is in electric vehicles since their source of fuel (electricity) is not bound by changes in the fuel source. The power companies are already changing to renewables like solar, wind, tidal, and hydro. I am going to ask my power company to go for more renewables at http://www.greenpowerswitch.com.
As poster 19 mentions, GM has no technological know-how to make the real hybrid. Viewed from that angle their statement is obvious impotent boo-hoo: we can’t do it so its nonsense…
As for all mentions of the economical diesels, I am for them. Than, make hybrids from those… 100mpg anyone?
I wonder how many commenters actually read the whole article:
In March, Lutz said GM is most enthusiastic about ethanol. “We think running the nation on E85 makes more sense than all the hybrids in the world,” he said.
>maintaining five separate automotive divisions
You think they should shut down all these divisions? All that does is make them a smaller company.
He’s right, hybrids don’t pay for themselves. All your hyperventiating isn’t going to make it so. GM sells more fuel efficient cars in Europe, because gas is more expensive there.
In March, Lutz said GM is most enthusiastic about ethanol. “We think running the nation on E85 makes more sense than all the hybrids in the world,” he said. In March, Lutz said GM is most enthusiastic about ethanol. “We think running the nation on E85 makes more sense than all the hybrids in the world,” he said.
He must have a lot of shares in ADM.
… and corn is about the WORST source for ethanol.
#9 Yes but as pointed out by #12, don’t crap your pants ;), and also GM can’t make money in India or China either hybrid or hybridless, so that’s beside the point.
And for all talking Diesel : Diesel is a lot more pollutant. But cheaper. FYI gsoline here in Portugal (more or less the same as rest of europe) is 1.37Euro/liter. You do the math.
And Hybrid isn’t just recovering brake energy. The main gain is acceleration. The electric motor has almost equal torque at low or high rotation, so it pumps in when you get out of a traffic light (and while waiting for the green light the gas motor shuts off) or when you need to do a recover of speed. This is saving the fuel.
They’ll kill this project just like the “killed the electric car”. They’ll make some excuse that sounds good.
Thing is, Toyota and Hondo probly will keep going with the technology.
These U.S. Car makers (if you really want to call them that anymore) just need to die and get burried.
#16, #25, You might argue that hybrids are much more efficient in the city, which does make sense. But there are indeed a lot of cars running in the city. Aren’t they?
Yes, diesel is much more pollutant, not in quantity, but mainly in the type of particles that come out of the engine. That is why, all in all, I feel less guilty riding my four-stroke motorbike, mainly if I’m going slowly. 🙂
I agree that E85 is probably the best solution for now. It can be obtained here without having to kiss the ass or the Saudis or Hugo Chavez. It also only requires a few modifications to todays engines without being overpriced. And they can be used with regular gas too, so E85 fuel could be phased in over time.
There is more against the Hybrid then just econmics. The whole fuel savings is a myth. The MPG measurements are made by the EPA. Do you think they give a flying crap about how much oil you use, no they dont even measure it, rather the measure emissions. The EPA puts the car on the dyno and measures emissions per mile, then since no one really would care about emissions they use a formual from the 70s to compute the used fuel. This is why the EPA numbers on the window are so inaccurate and only have gotten worse in recent years. Car companies know if they can make clean burning car they can use as much fuel as they like. So really Hybrids are pollute less, but as for gas savings it doesnt really happen. To further complicate matters the EPA does short burst test which hybrids with fully charged batteries tend to do much better on. Hybrids in real world test don’t preform any where near their short running tests. It is so bad the EPA has even stated that the test are very unrealiable and need to be updated to properly measure these new car designs. As someone that has driven hybrids, ethonal, pure electrics, diesel, and standard gas cars I can tell you don’t belive the hype. Hybrids are there just to let people pay a little more, feel a little more smug as if they are doing something that really matters. Electrics, ethonal, hydrodgen, or even diseal are almost all hands down better choices then a gas hybrid, but hey don’t let logic or science come into this. Hybrids are about a political statement not a scientific choice.
Heh…
Remember the movie, “They Live” ?
Consume…
Consume…
Consume…
Consume…
Consume…
Consume…
Consume…
Consume…
Consume…
Consume…
Consume…
Consume…