Frank IBC says:

Or to put it in other words, how do you arrive at a negotiated solution when one side in the negotiation has consistently refused to uphold its end of the bargain?

Mr. H. Fusion says:

Frank, BULLCRAP

You are spinning the Fox Network angle. Try reading a little history for once, and not the crap on Fox.

-Fall 2000 – Israel withdraws from southern Lebanon and is promptly rewarded with the 2nd Intifadah and increased attacks from south Lebanon
-Summer 2005 – Israel withdraws from Gaza, yet violence initiated by Hamas and Fatah factions increases dramatically.
Comment by Frank IBC — 7/15/2006 @ 9:13 am

Boy, is your view of history twisted. Arafat had negotiated a peace deal with Israel. Palestine would stop the suicide bombings and Israel would stop invading Palestine. Only it was one sided. While Palestine police did what they could, Israel continued to kidnap and murder Palestinian leaders. Israeli roadblocks prevented Palestinians from traveling in their own country without severe hardships. Mothers in labor lost their lives because Israeli roadblocks held ambulances for hours without cause. And all this time, Arafat and the Palestinians held back.

Now, you are suggesting that because Israel left occupied territory in the face of international pressure, Palestine should be beholden? You suggest that because Israel did something they should have, the accounts are settled. Not if that was the only thing Israel did.

Then lets go to the last round of violence. I haven’t read anything from you about how the Israelis continued to kill Palestinian citizens, not with suicide bombers, but 500 pound bombs. I didn’t read anything about Israel stopping items from entering Palestine, including food, fuel, and medical supplies. I didn’t read anything about Israel taking massive amounts of Palestinian land and putting a wall miles from the real border. I didn’t read anything from you about Hamas sending those rockets onto Palestinian land that was stolen by the Israel settlers. I didn’t read anything by you about how Palestinians can not go about their daily life because of harassment from the Israelis.

All I read from you is it is all Palestine’s fault for the violence. Don’t bother telling me what you would do if your country was occupied by Mexico and you became a second class citizen. Don’t tell me how you would defend your family when a helicopter fired a missile into the neighbors apartment killing your wife and kid. Don’t tell anyone just how brave you are, because we know what kind of a coward enjoys beating a weaker person.

Frank you are a fool. You don’t have any solution. You don’t even have an idea what is happening. The people that act like you are why America is so despised around the world.

Mr. H. Fusion says:

I stopped reading after “you are spining the Fox Network angle”. Reading any further would be a waste of time.
Comment by Frank IBC — 7/15/2006 @ 5:41 pm

Which explains why your comments are what they are. You don’t read a newspaper either.

Frank IBC says:

All I read from you is it is all Palestine’s fault for the violence. Don’t bother telling me what you would do if your country was occupied by Mexico and you became a second class citizen

What “country” are you talking about? There was no independent country of Palestine until Israel turned over control of Gaza and portions of the West Bank to PA control. Prior to 1967, the area known as “Palestine” occupied by Jordan and Egypt, prior to that, a British mandate; prior to that, part of the Ottoman Empire, and part of several empires before that, leading back to the Roman Empire.

And are you suggesting that Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, Utah, and portions of several other states should be returned to Mexico?

Mr. H. Fusion says:

In the 2000 Camp David negotiations, Israel offered to turn over most of the West Bank (and all of Gaza) to the Palestinians. Arafat rejected this offer, and made no counter-offer, walking out of the talks instead, and unleashing the 2nd Intifadah 2 months later.

That is a very one sided explanation. The deal would have deprived Palestine of much of the West Bank and subjected the Palestine government to Israeli control. The intifadah came about because of Israeli clampdowns on Palestine. Trade and Palestinian movement was curtailed so the Palestinians refused to enter Israel. Israel retaliated with a few bombs on the civilians, increased pressure on civilians, kidnappings and murder. Not to mention the attacks upon the Palestinian Police Stations, the very ones trying to keep Hamas and other groups under control.

And I will ask you again – why did Egypt and Jordan chose to occupy the West Bank and Gaza for 18 years instead of allowing a Palestinian state to form, and why should they receive no criticism for doing so?

You are such a fool. Gaza was part of Egypt and the West Back was part of Jordan. Read the 1949 Armistice Agreement. If you want to condemn Egypt and Jordon, then fine, I’m not defending them. That would, however, blow your support for Israeli occupation since 1967 which would be 39 years, more then twice the Egypt / Jordon “occupation”. BTW, the 1949 Armistice Agreement set the boundaries between Israel and her neighbors until permanent borders could be agreed upon. Neither Israel or the Arabs are guiltless about aggression or incursions against the other.

Since the majority of the Jewish population of Israel is comprised of or is decended from the 850,000 Jews who were expelled from the surrounding Arab countries

I don’t know where you got those statistics nor what significance they have to the discussion.

The missiles have been fired into northern and southwestern Israel, land within the 1949 armistice line. No missiles were fired into the West Bank.

The land in question was settled by Palestinians. They were evicted from their land and forcibly removed from the country. The West Bank has been attacked by Palestinian militia in the past although it now seems that the rocket attacks are coming from Lebanon and the Gaza Strip.

I’m going to keep this short, no sense in writing something you can’t read. You still haven’t offered any suggestions on what to do. I’ll also toss your question back to you. If Egypt and Jordon were wrong to occupy Gaza and the West Bank for 18 years, is Israel twice as wrong to occupy the same areas for twice that long?

Frank IBC says:

Could you translate that into English, ECA?

Frank IBC says:

The land in question was settled by Palestinians. They were evicted from their land and forcibly removed from the country.

Interesting that you use the word “settler” to describe the Palestinians.

Sorry, but they were not “evicted from the land and forcibly removed from the country”. They voluntarily left in anticipation that the armies of the Arab countries would destroy the newly-formed state of Israel, and that they would return after Israel had been destroyed. But the joke was on them.

I don’t know where you got those statistics nor what significance they have to the discussion.

It is not necessary for you to play dumb with me, I already know that you are.

What I said is that the majority of Israelis are ews who were expelled from Arab countries following the establishment of the state of Israel, or are descended from them, and thus it’s pretty hypocritical to complain about the Palestinian refugees, who voluntarily left their homes in the hopes that Israel would be destroyed.

Oh, and I almost forgot… this is what the Palestinians WOULD have gotten, had they been willing to live in peace with the Israelis in 1948. Substantially more than the present West Bank and Gaza Strip.

UN Partition Plan of 1947

joshua says:

Mr. Fusion…….The history of the Isralie/Palistinian conflict is full of aggressions by both sides. Your simplistic and one sided view that it’s the evil Isralies that are the agressors is just that, simplistic and one-sided.
This latest flare up is Palistinian in origin, meaning Hama’s. They were elected in pretty much a fair election, but it has complicated the situation due to their refusal to give up their wish to exterminate Isreal. Isreal has made some very large concessions by giving up Gaza and large parts of the West Bank and has been rewarded with a renewal of missle attacks into it’s territory. They reap what they sow.
It’s almost impossable to not kill or injure civilians in an area so congested with people as Isreal/Palistine. The Palistians know this. They have gone after civilian targets for 30 years and avoid Isreali army targets for the most part. Isreal has gone after first Arafats brigades, then Hama’s brigades, and in the process has killed civilians. The difference is that one side spicifically targets civilians and the other targets military with some civlian causualties.
Sorry, but you are wrong this time.

Frank IBC says:

English is RIGHT. [sic]
Britain back [sic] the formation of Isreal [sic]…
Based on the fact that MOST of europe has been fighting for Bethlaham [sic], for MANY MANY years as well as Jurusalem [sic], called the crusades.
They finally GOT it

What do you mean Britain or Europe “finally GOT… Bethalam [sic]…as well as Jurusalem [sic]”?

That makes no sense whatsoever, since most European governments tend to be more sympathetic to the PA than to the state of Israel.

ECA says:

58,
OLD history..
The Crusades, and Rome, trying to reclaim the Holy lands.
Fighting the Turks, sence then..
Then the Brits got into abit of control, and setup puppet states using the Turks, opened up the Lands for the establishment of Isreal.

i says:

http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=6170
Or are you suggesting that Israel itself is “Palestinian land stolen by the Israeli settlers”?
and why wouldn’t it be after ~1800 years without a coherent Israel (~60 A.D. to ~1949 A.D.)?

though, if
There is no such thing as a Palestinian people; there are just Arabs.
is true, it would seem to suggest that

The only realistic solution is to push chunks of Gaza and the West Bank towards some other Arab Government such as Jordan or Egypt (or Tunisia for all I care).
is fairly reasonable, but we need to review evedence to decide if Palestinians really don’t exist, even though they had ~1800 years to come into existance (not compensating for other occupations such as British, which really wouldn’t have interefered with their development into a people it would seem to me)

P.S.
This isn’t Hatfields versus McCoys
This is Cro-Magnon versus Neanderthal
regardless of politics, or right vs. wrong, that analogy is rather visually amusing

Bob W says:

It’ss time for some Americans to get a life.
Gee what a tough thought process to arrive at a conclusion
over this latest mid-east encounter.

Let’s see now.. which side should I take….

– The side who prefers to continue the Jewish solution policies of the failed Nazi regime of the 30’s and 40’s, or the side of the children of the victims of the Hitler’s, Goring’s, and Himmlers?

– The side of those who brainwashed some brainless loser to drive a truck through a barrier and kill 247 US Marines on a Beirut peace keeping mission while they slept, or the only country in the mid east who does not have a religion with elements feasting on killing children to provide terror.

– The side of those who ran into the streets and celebrated when America was attacked on 9/11 or the country who sent us aid in this darkest hour.

Ah yes.. the America haters living in America tell me that ‘we had it coming’. After all, if only we would let Israel disappear.. relocate somewhere else… why then the good folks in Syria and Iran, can focus on the USA and Europe without those annoying Jews taking up so many resources. Listening to that wonderful station ‘Air America’ I have learned that the ‘progressives’ in this country now refer to Israel as ‘Israel in it’s current location’. It seems they are on the same page as the mid east terror organizations who deny Israel the right to exist.
These are truely priceless individuals who remain to this day President Bush’s strongest allies. Dispite all the problems with Bush, the left in this country remains far more frightening than anything GW continues to dish out, and will continue to ensure future Republican presidents get elected.

I have a dream! I dream some day I might be able to vote for a Democrat once again to run this country. I have a dream!