The comments keep on coming, so… reposted to the top AGAIN
28 Percent Believe the Bible Is Literally True
A little more than one quarter of Americans believe the Bible is the literal word of God, down 10 percentage points since 1976.
According to a recent survey by the Gallup Poll, 28 percent of Americans believe the Bible is literally true, compared to 38 percent 30 years ago. The survey was conducted among 1,002 adults, aged 18 or older. Nearly half, 49 percent, said the Bible was the “inspired word of God,” while 19 percent called it an “ancient book of fables.” Only 3 percent had no opinion.
Literal belief in the Bible was highest among older Americans (36 percent), those with lowest levels of education (39 percent), Southerners (39 percent), Republicans (33 percent), and Protestants and other non-Catholic Christians (37 percent).
Should career Christians (clergy, church administrators, etc.) be concerned about this downward trend? Probably not if they are close to retirement. :-)
#89 PcMonster, don’t assume that I agree with what I didn’t bother to address. I rarely debate scriptures anyway, except to point out how they contradict certain claims that Christians make. Other times I point out scriptural ideas that most Christians would like to suppress because those ideas are offensive even to them. Since you claimed that certain cultural phenomena were specifically linked to the removal of the Bible from schools, but offered no evidence, I researched the one item (teen pregnancy) for which a credible metric was readily available. And wedded or not, American teen pregnancies are OVER 10 TIMES AS HIGH IN AMERICA AS JAPAN, A NON-CHRISTIAN NATION. Adjust however you want for the marriage factor, there’s still no comparison.
I’ve seen your argument before, so I’m not blaming you for faulty original thinking. If you’re like me, the first place you heard that argument was in church. Someday, maybe I’ll tell you the one about the bumblebee that science “proved” cannot fly, but through God’s wondrous grace, disproves science with every flap of its wings. It’s a very heartwarming story.
Plus, put me down for ditto everything JimR said đ
The following is information for the edification of all who may care to read my, somewhat off topic from the original post, explanation of the points I made in my earlier comment # 87.
I realize that I should have been more thorough and I shouldnât have taken for granted that people would know about these things.
As for the Bible being removed from public schools in 1962, I will point to the atheist leader Madalyn Murray Oâhair who filed suit because she thought her sons First Amendment rights were being violated and he was being discriminated against because he refuse to participate in his schools religious exercises. The suit was defeated in Marylandâs lower court, appealed and became Murray v. Curlett in the United States Supreme Court. Her little crusade in the early 60âs helped start a wave that went form one state to another challenging everything from the recitation of The Lords Prayer to prayer and devotional Bible reading in the schools. Forcing the Supreme Court hear other cases that resulted in rulings against the practices.
To name just a couple:
Engel v. Vitale, (1962),
Declared prayers in public school unconstitutional.
Abington Township School District v. Schempp, (1963),
Declared unconstitutional devotional Bible reading and recitation of the Lord’s Prayer in public schools.
The preceding was taken from:
âThe Supreme Court of the United States: A Student Companion (Oxford Student Companions to American Government)â by John J. Patrick, Oxford University Press, 2001
âThe Atheist: Madalyn Murray OâHariâ by Bryan F. Le Beau, New York University Press, 2003.
âEngel v. Vitale, Religion and the Schoolsâ, by Mark Dudley, 1962
Citing for the increase in âunwedâ teen pregnancies ages 15 â 19 statistics, see http://www.cdc.gov (Thatâs the Center for Disease Control and Prevention) they are a reputable organization, and if more direction is needed here is the direct link to the report. “http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/teenbrth.pdf” (without the quotes) page 2 figure 2.
A note about one of the points Gary made in post # 88 where he quoted, âAccording to the National Center for Health Statistics, between 1991 and 2000 the pregnancy rate for young teenagers 15-17 years dropped 29 percent, and the rates for ages 15-19 years and 15-17 years in 2000 were at all-time lowsâ.
Itâs interesting that âVoluntary student-initiated Bible study and prayer clubs were reaffirmed by the Supreme Court in 1990, when the justices upheld the Equal Access Act, a federal law that permits students to form religion clubs at public high schools under certain conditionsâ.
If people canât see that itâs more than coincidence that at the time the practices were removed from the schools the stats went up and when the practices were reaffirmed the stats went down, then they need to open their hearts and minds a little.
This is part 1⌠There is more to come.
Romans 14: 11-12
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
PcMonster, your conclusion that the underlying cause of America’s cultural decline is the removal of organized school prayer remains totally unfounded. It lacks one of the most basic principles of scientific research — the control group. Your study requires two otherwise similar groups, one portion with school prayer and the other portion denied school prayer, followed by a comparison of the two groups. Without controls, your conclusion constitutes what any self-respecting researcher would call “junk science.” Our culture has been bombarded by so many influences and events, isolating one single event as “the one” that caused it all is ridiculous, but well within the range of non-critical thinking that I’ve witnessed in the religious community.
And since so much of your material seems Christian oriented, are you implying that prayer specifically directed to the one true Hebrew God you worship is at the root of these cultural trends, or would prayer to any false god have the same effect? Just wondering…
So, who gave god the right to tell us what to do?
Bruce IV>> Either I am right, and the Bible is literally true, or you are right, and it isnât.
Isn’t this a classic example of a false dichotomy?
When it comes to belief about the bible or any other holy book, there are all kinds of ways to regard them besides your “either… or…” scenario.
I don’t know ANYBODY who actually takes the bible completely literally true, even among the most conservative, fundamentalists “literal” Christians I know. And I know a lot.
This first occurred to me when I was about twelve years of age, studying the bible in my little hyper-conservative, bible-believing, fundamentalist church. I remember this vividly, we were studying Revelation 14
[quote]20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and there came out blood from the winepress, even unto the bridles of the horses, as far as a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
[/quote]
In all sincerity, I tried to pin our elders down on how a bible-believing Christian can take this passage literally. When they tried to spiritualize it or construct convoluted scenarios, I continued to pressed my point.
“Are people going to get squished in real wine presses? How much blood would it take to be four or five feet deep for 1600 furlongs?” (Wikipedia tells me that’s 180 miles)
… until my mother shot me this hostile “shut up or you’ll get it at home!” look.
That was the beginning of a life-long journey to be intellectually-honest about my Christianity.
Aw, now see?
First this was “Satan’s war on faith”.
Now its a Sunday school.
I definately liked it better when it was antagonistic. Then again, I just got done being told atheism turns people into sociopaths.
Here’s to love and compassion.
By any means necessary.
In dealing with so-called .contradictions. in the Bible, these principles
should be remembered. (1) No contradiction exists between verses that refer to different persons or things.
(2) No contradiction exists between passages that
involve different time elements.
(3) No contradiction exists between verses that
employ phraseology in different senses.
(4) Supplementation is not the same
as contradiction. (5) One need show only the possibility of harmonization between two passages that appear to conflict in order to negate the force of an alleged
discrepancy.
Finally, this point needs to be made: the differences in various Bible accounts of the same events actually demonstrate the independence of the divine writers, and prove that they were not in collusion! God, though using human writers in the composition of the Bible, is nevertheless its ultimate Author.
And since the perfect God cannot be the source of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) or contradiction (Hebrews 6:18), it must be acknowledged that the Bible is perfectly harmonious. This does not mean that men will not struggle with difficult passages. If seeming discrepancies are discovered, let us apply ourselves
to a diligent study to resolve them; but let us never foolishly charge God with allowing His sacred writers to contradict one another.
Remember,
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of WISDOM…
Yes, I do remember.
I remember the first time I realized how often I had heard the words “God-fearing” while I was growing-up i.e. “He’s a decent, God-fearing man…” and wondered why it was necessary to fear our loving, compassionate God…
That was the beginning of my awareness of the “carrot & stick” mentality of Christianity…
Carrot: Accept Jesus as your personal savior, and have life everlasting…
Stick: Deny Christ, and burn in Hell for all eternity…
PcMonster gives the “classic” warning in #87:
If you havenât then you have to ask yourself a few more questions.
Do I really understand the implications of not making that decision?
Do I realize that if I choose not to decide I still have made a choice?
Shortly after writing:
What I donât understand is, âWhat is so threatening about the Bible when it holds with things like loving your neighbor and treating everyone with compassionâ?
If the love & compassion isn’t enough to draw you in, the fear of eternal damnation is invoked…
I expect to be one of those “Left Behind”, somebodys gotta do it…
Mike #98
Fear of the Lord means: respect, honor, and reverence for God.
It doesnât mean being afraid of God
PSALM 19
9 The FEAR OF THE LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
PROVERBS 8
13 The FEAR OF THE LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the forward mouth.
.
Ah, PC?
Wasn’t too long ago that you were venting about intolerance and stuff. You apparently thought that anybody who figured that the number of literalists going down was a good thing was an attack against Christianity itself. I’m sure this blog was heard all the way in Denmark.
The whole thing about everyone facing God one day was a nice touch.
But it did more to illustrate the original point. All you did was switch back to the carrot.
In this case, you may be stuck living with at least one of us.
I’ve said this before, but it bears repeating here.
By definition, once a person relies on faith to answer the questions they have about life, the universe, and everything, they lose the ability to determine the facts for themselves. Once someone places their life in the service of any organized church, they put themselves at the mercy of those who have appointed themselves the arbiters of that church’s intentions and desires.
Many religions use fear to keep the rank-and-file in line, leavened with promises of an idyllic life in the world beyond this one. A fear of “The Lord” is simply a displacement of critical thought in favor of accepting whatever rules that those who claim to be speaking for the Lord give to their congregation.
(They don’t refer to the worshippers as “sheep” for nothing.)
PcMonster, in reference to your statement
âSince then the Bible has been completely taken out of the schools. Teen pregnancies, drug use, abortions, suicides and a host of other horrible tendencies have increased dramatically.â
My response…
“…where is your evidence that removal of the bible had anything at all to do with them. Your assertion implies that nothing else significant happened to American teens, directly or indirectly, since 1962.”
My point was whether your statement is totally true or not (no references for drug use, suicides etc), tying the “horrible tendencies” to ONE event out of millions of events that happened or began to happen around 1962, is absurd. It is closed mindedness to the extreme.
And yet, those that question the validity of the Bible and look at ALL the events and changes in society at home and worldwide to try and ascertain why those trends occured, are accused of closedmindedness.
It’s the same with the recent Muslim cartoon controvercy. Religious cartoons are published on all religions worldwide. But only Muslims are intolerant of this practice to the angry and vengeful extent the world witnessed. But who do they claim is intolerant? The west of course. We’re intolerant because we tolerate all religions equally. I won’t elaborate because that’s been done thoroughly on Dvorak Uncensored already.
Fear of the Lord means: respect, honor, and reverence for God.
It doesnât mean being afraid of God
It seems so Orwellian for that to be the only context in which “fear” doesn’t have its generally-accepted meaning…
It makes me wonder what word was used in the original-language texts, and why it has been handed-down to us in translations as “fear”.
#100 Congratulations Max, on making the 100th post without sending the forum software into a tailspin (a la Y2K). The looming prospect of 3-digit numbering filled me with great trepidation, but we survived. Hmmm, I’m sure there’s no connection to the subject matter, but does this seem to be the eternal thread? đ
Good CageMatch links, sir.
PcMonster, it has to be very difficult for you to accept the logic of the more intuitive posters here, but you have to look beyond the tree and see that there is in fact a forest.
You quote the bible but refuse to accept that for every literal quote there is a contradicting literal quote. Even the quotes you use are flawed in some way. For instance…
“PROVERBS 8
13 The FEAR OF THE LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the forward mouth.”
I don’t see any metaphores there, so I assume I am being told that pride is evil. My son got 95.2% on his mid-terms through extremely hard work, so in Gods eyes I am evil to feel proud him; or even proud of myself for instilling in him honesty and goodness, or ecouuraging him succeed to the best of his abilities??
OMG
Neal Saferstein
Well, the 100th post did not crash the software, but…
I was getting my sister ready to take her up for a blood draw and there was a knock on the door. Couple seconds later, I was staring at the lady from the Kingdom Hall up the street. Naturally, I completely choked. Not anything I had the heart for — couple minutes later, the sister person has a couple of Watchtowers, and I’m gonna be nervous about answering the door for a while.
She’s a nice enough person, and I imagine I freaked her out a little the last time she was out this way. But my sister’s learning disabled, and that made me cringe a little.
I’ve been hearing Michael Biehn’s rant from Terminator over and over since I got back. Relentless. Relentless is a good word.
Good to know the software works, but I hope for everyone else’s sake it doesn’t work like it did for me.
Max, in my neighborhood, we just finished combining our Johovah’s Witnesses with our citizen safety patrol.
We call it………. Neighborhood Watchtower!
Crime is down, but annoyance is at an all-time high đ
Say – is that photographic evidence of Noah’s Ark?
Wow, Iâm away from my computer for a while and 8 posts are added to this thread, and 5 out of those are directed at my comments. Since I am the only one here who seems to want to try to help then all I can say is I will do my best.
I think itâs great that so many of you are interested in the topic we have been discussing I pray that God does a special work in each of your lives.
OK, so here we go!
#100- in my first post #18 I did say that I felt that this blog was used quite a bit to discredit Christianity and wandered if other faiths were equally involved. I also said that I thought it was Johnâs fault that these posts were selected but I was gently rebuked and enlightened to the âtruthâ by someone who claimed to be god #19 and JimR # 25 and John himself # 27.
You said âYou apparently thought that anybody who figured that the number of literalists going down was a good thing was an attack against Christianity itselfâ
Iâm guessing you got that from # 87 but I donât know how. What I said was that I think some specific social ills have occurred as a direct reflection of the Bible being taken out of schools.
As for the rest of your comment in #100 ⌠May be you could elaborate.
PSALMS 14: 1
The fool hath said in his heart, there is NO GOD. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is no one who does good.
#101- Everyone knows that the answer to life, the universe, and everything is 42, at least according to Douglas Adams.
But seriously folks⌠Iâll be back directly.
PcMonster, you have a good sense of humour and that’s good. You are also greatly outnumbered here which makes it difficult to answer all posts.
But I would ask you to try and respond to the more formidable points made, For instance I think I’ve adequately shown that you are unable to see the big picture because you are so focused on trying to manipulate unrelated data, and nonsensical or contradictive bible quotes to your favor. Invalid reasoning is christian logic.
For instance I could say that that the removal of the bible from classrooms in 1962 caused the Equal Pay Act of 1963, or the Civil Rights act of 1964 which led to a steady upward trend in the quality of life of the oppressed. There are lots of good things that have happened when the bible was removed from classrooms, so it’s removal must have caused those good things to happen.
That’s the logic you use and that’s why your defense will only validate unbelievers. As you say… the end is near.
Way up at the top of the thread I saw that poster Higghawker said that he (she?) was happy to be among the 28 percent who take the bible literally. So I have to ask…do you eat pork? Do you eat shrimp, lobster, clams or oysters? Do you seek to put your neighbor to death for working on the sabbath?
Let’s go back to an old episode of The West Wing with fictional liberal president having a conversation with a fictional clone of Dr. Laura. The whole thing seems based on an email that was making the rounds sveral years back but for the bible literalists, I do question how exactly it is that they become “cafeteria Christians” that get to pick and choose the parts of the “literally true” bible that they believe and live by.
Cafeteria Christians
(This link is to a Geocities site so bandwidth is severely restricted.)
Jim Thanks for your post. I think a since of humor is important in any situation.
The things that youâve motioned may be right in your eyes and I could say the same about you. I have taken offense to none and I hope you wonât either.
You said âFor instance I think Iâve adequately shown that you are unable to see the big picture because you are so focused on trying to manipulate unrelated data, and nonsensical or contradictive bible quotes to your favor. Invalid reasoning is Christian logic.â
I say that my points are exactly valid but since they are fundamentally arguing for the side of defending the Bible then most people here are not going to even consider them.
I could say for instance that I think your mind is so close to the things of God that you arenât willing to take things of God at face value, thatâs called faith. Now most people would say that I am judging you IF I said that. That could not be any further from the truth. I donât know the condition of your heart. I donât know whether you will go to heaven or hell, thatâs not for me to judge. If I did speculate as to which was your fate then that would be judging you. They donât understand that because they have never taken the time to fully understand such things. And more than likely most of them have not seen both sides as I have.
See unlike most people here I can see both sides. I havenât been a Christian all of my life. As a matter of fact in my 43 years quite a bit more than half were spent as a secularist. I know exactly from whence I came. I know exactly the arguments that are used against God. Itâs when you start debating semantics that things get nasty, and thatâs not good because neither side is going to give. Thatâs why I try to remind people that the core issues should be addressed first then you can figure everything else out, or not.
Everyone tries to twist words and statements to fit their argument or the points they are trying to make and, well thatâs just what they will do.
Kind of like you did in the second part of your post.
Most people in my situation would not take the time to debate the things at the length that we have in this thread. I obviously am no theologian nor do I have a complete and precise mastery of the side that I am arguing for, but at least I am here, at least I try. Why? Because I must. Have I made mistakes? Yes, and I will make more. Iâm not perfect, just forgiven.
You are right the end is near, and I assume you mean for this thread, but I assure you the END is near and the condition of our hearts will be weighed and some will be found lacking. May God have mercy on us all.
I do intend to continue to address points in this thread so give me a bit and âIâll be back!â
[editor: if you wish to include chunks of books, pls just insert a link — tinyurl if needed]
Mr. Berry, (112)
The Old Law, 10 commandments, were laws that God gave to the Jews, the chosen people of the time. Knowing they couldn’t keep those laws, his reasoning was so they would see the need for a Savior, Jesus Christ.
These laws you speak of, the Sabbath etc. are not for myself or anyone today. Jesus did away with the Old Law when he died on the cross.
Every person today, Jew, Greek, whatever, must live their life according to the New Testament. This is your choice.
Roman Berry #112- How can you possibly come here with that crap? You obviously have no understanding of the Bible. I shouldnât even give you my time it will take to type a response to your comment.
Iâm glad for you that you finally found somewhere you thought you could throw in your lot with others of the same persuasion but I can only hope that they are as offended by your comment as I am.
What you speak of is of the Old Testament when the Jews were given laws by which to live. Unless the person you are addressing is a practicing Orthodox Jew then those things wouldnât even be an issue. And I guarantee, you wouldnât want to start a conversation with them that way. Just to fill you in a bit more, Jesus Christ did away with the old law and gave us all (even you) a better way to live. Thatâs called the New Testament; you might want to read it too. Start with the Gospel of John. Itâs the forth book in from the beginning of the New Testament. After youâve read it come back and ask nicely and I MIGHT talk to you more about it.
I think that either you study the Bible a LOT more or you just sit there and watch more TV like a good boy and leave grown up discussions to others.
PcMonster,
Like you I have converted. I was brought up Roman Catholic and after 40 some years have moved completely over to Atheism.
The end is near for organized religion IMO. By near I mean 100 years or so. Look at the trends. The sheep are a dying breed. As science reveals the truth bit by bit, as the religious excuses become even more absurd, as religious groups get more violent and self-righteous, as freedom to just be becomes more and more threatened, religion will either fade away or there will be a terrible showdown and Christians will not turn the other cheek… they never have.
Meanwhile I will be proud of my children while you call me evil through the word of God and say I can’t see the truth.
JimR, I agree with some of your statement. Religions, as you say may well come to an end and in some way that will be good. I will not limit the practice of religion to only the Roman Catholic Church either. I have never understood some of the tenets of the Roman Catholic Church or where they come from because some of them are not biblical, and I believe they have done considerable harm in the name of God. I will not broad-brush them and say there is no good in them, I do know of Catholic Christians. They are Christians because the believe John 3: 16 is true.
I donât have a âreligionâ in the since that you mean. I have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. I think that there should be a distinction between those who are Christian and those involved in religion but, not all religions are inherently bad. I am sorry that the Roman Catholic âreligionâ has hardened you toward God. I know that he longs to have a ârelationshipâ with you, not a religion. I canât apologize for what the Bible says, but I do know God loves you and your children.
PC:
(this does need to move to the forums, and they’re empty. I don’t wanna find out what happens when someone posts #200, though)
While I was generalizing the pro-Christian response, the nutshell version is that a few people internalized something not directed at them, and in doing so, turned it into a defense of Christianity as a whole. This wasn’t necessarily intentional on anyone’s part, but then I also think simply referring to any of what’s been posted is a matter of wanting to discredit Christianity. And trying to suggest that it was somehow inbalanced because it didn’t include other faiths stuck me in the same sense. I don’t actually hear from any other ethnicity, and I have Muslims and Sihks and who knows who else within blocks of me. When somebody tries to tell me the United States has ALWAYS been a Wiccan country, then I’ll deal with them, I suppose.
I think JimR’s right, though.
Ostensibly, God isn’t going to change, but his house needs some work. Saying so isn’t a matter of attacking anything, though. Its just that too much of it is about controlling people or converting through deciet. I’d love to see the Discovery Institute teach critical thinking, but I don’t think that’s what will happen at all. And I can’t imagine that’s anything other than fundamentally unhelpful.
Too much God and not enough Jesus, perhaps.
GregAllen (95) … Revelation is prophecy – not neccessarily literally, as written, true … parts of it are metaphor … I’m too tired to go and look up that particular passage right now, but it would take a greater Bible scholar than me to sort it out anyway.
JimR (105) … for one he’s probably quoting the King James – the meaning of some words has shifted since it was written – thus, while perfectly accurate to its original audience, a modern one may find some mixups … even if he isn’t (as I say, its late, and I don’t want to check) pride in the sense he used it would refer to vain pride – being full of one’s self.
#115 PcMonster, your dismissal of Roman Berry’s post was not only rude, but you displayed a fundamental ignorance of your own faith. I’d be a little nicer if you hadn’t been so condescending, implying he had no place to participate in “grown up discussions.”
You retorted to him, “How can you possibly come here with that crap? You obviously have no understanding of the Bible. I shouldnât even give you my time it will take to type a response to your comment.”
Guess what! The very “crap” laws he cited were issued by the same Hebrew God YOU worship. For the thousands of years before Jesus came, following those “crap” laws, along with God’s other commandments, was the only means handed down by YOUR God to his chosen people to attain heaven. Those “crap” laws are a direct reflection of YOUR God and what his rules for living were, before Christianity.
As a practicing Christian, you may live according to the New Testament, but if you want a fuller portrait of the God you serve, you MUST read the Old Testament. It contains stories of great love, but also stories of incredible brutality and unfairness in the punishments he meted out. The fact that he commanded the Israelites to stone a man to death because he gathered sticks on the Sabbath is a part of YOUR God’s personality, like it or not. If you’re offended by some of the things you read, I’m not surprised. For the record, I happen to agree with you that his rules were crap, but they help form the historical underpinnings of your own faith, because YOU worship that same Hebrew God.
You can run, but you can’t hide from your faith. I’m glad Roman Berry made that post, because the term “cafeteria Christian” is a very apt metaphor in today’s world. I’d forgotten hearing it.