Diesel-powered race Peugeot
New US standards for diesel fuel that went into effect June 1 are expected to open the door for auto manufacturers to introduce more diesel-powered cars to the US market, industry analysts say.The new environmental rules require a 97 percent reduction in the sulfur content of highway diesel fuel, from its current level of 500 parts per million (ppm), to 15 ppm. Refiners were required to start producing this cleaner fuel as of Thursday, and it should be available nationwide by October 15.
In addition to the obvious benefit of reducing emissions from the 13 million heavy trucks using diesel fuel, the new cleaner fuel could make it easier for automakers to introduce more passenger diesel cars that meet strict US emissions standards.
The new cleaner diesel fuel “opens up the door of opportunity” to sell more diesel cars and light trucks in the US market, says Allen Schaeffer, executive director of the Diesel Technology Forum.
“Diesel has not had a great public image as a technology but that is changing. The new diesel engines have no visible exhaust, no smoke, the noise is equivalent to a gasoline model, and it offers 20 to 40 percent better fuel economy.”
Additionally, Schaeffer said, a diesel engine offers more “torque,” or acceleration capability, compared with an equivalent gasoline engine.
Currently, only a handful of diesel-powered passenger cars are sold in the US market by Volkswagen and DaimlerChrysler, along with several large pickup trucks from General Motors and Ford.
But on Thursday Chrysler Group said it will offer a diesel engine option for its 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee, making it the first diesel-powered, full-size sport-utility vehicle to be offered in the United States.
Notwithstanding the automobile industry, the new regulations will have a major environmental benefit by cutting emissions, including a number of cancer-causing pollutants, from 13 million big diesel trucks on US roads.
“Diesels are the workhorse of American transportation, and now diesel engines can be much much cleaner,” said Bruce Hill, scientist for the Clean Air Task Force.
We have a few members of the DU Army who can add authoritative comment about this article. I hope they drop by, today.
Meanwhile, I spoke to a bud at FedEx and he said the several hundred diesel-hybrids [a category not mentioned in the article] they’ve already added in a market or two in the East Coast have cut their fuel costs 50%.
This is great, but at the same time there are other stipulations that go with this law. I sell Volkswagens for a living, and everyone wants a Diesel vehicle right now because of rising gas prices and diesel fuels better mileage per gallon. The law requiring lowered sulfur diesel fuel also mandates stricter emissions requirements for diesel passenger vehicles. Sadly because of this, Volkswagen is not making any passenger cars for the 2007 model year because the 2007 diesel engine they sell in europe does not meet these requirements and requires a redesign. Currently only Volkswagen and Mercedes Bens sell diesel cars. With VW pulling out, this does open up the market for other makers to step into the diesel passenger vehicle market. Until 2008 when VW comes back with the Jetta, Golf, and Beetle TDI’s.
The US automakers have a big job on their hands if they want to sell diesels to the masses. The vision of a stinky, smoky diesels engine is strong in the minds of americans. A massive PR effort would be needed to dispel that.
Same day as Chrysler announced that they are stopping plans for the diesel SUV planned to be released later this year…
Sag: I’m not entirely sure, but diesel probably emits more CO2 per GALLON, but less CO2 per MILE. (because diesels are more efficent) So, for the same amount of work (getting your car down the road) a person’s CO2 output goes down.
gquaglia: All it takes is one ride in a modern diesel to dispel any myths. If only we had a BMW 530 and 530d to do back-to-back drives…. (530d is a 150mph monster only available in europe!… for now)
Higghawker: Diesel is easier to refine, but most refineries optimize to get more gasoline than diesel from a gallon of crude. This means that the supply for diesel is lower(than it could be) and has a fairly constant demand. Prices tend to go up a little in the fall and winter as agricultural demand and home heating oil(same as diesel) demand climbs.
Tim: VW is making a gamble that another company won’t come in and compete in their market segment during that year. This gives them more time to roll out a common euro/US solution (reducing their cost) while not really giving up any sales (since there’s no competition in their segment) Then, if they re-release diesels in 2008, they’ll be able to cash in on the pent-up demand. That’s all speculation by me… but if I was VW, it’s what I’d do. If someone happens to release a diesel in their market segment, it will be a little more interesting, but VW should still do fairly well.
Eideard, Thanks for the “pro diesel” article! … although I noticed you still got your hybrid digs in at the end. Those FedEx delivery vans are the PERFECT application for a hybrid, and a diesel one at that. I hope they convert their whole fleet.
Ryan
Is a simple, cheap, plug-in electric car a dead issue?
I want one as a second car for the 80% of my driving that is within 10 miles of my house.
#4 – Pricing. There are many factors that go into a price.
One is that you can get more litres of gasoline than Diesel from a barrel of oil. Tariff structures (usually value added) that are added to the wholesale price. Market manipulation – whether intentional or otherwise. Modern pricing practices put little effort trying to correlate the producers cost to the consumer price except that companies can’t sustain a business where the former exceeds the latter.
Cheaper? Here in Iowa it is normally more expensive.
Diesel fuel is a byproduct of gasoline production, no, it isnt necessarily cheaper. Also, the price of oil products is high due to DEMAND. It doesnt matter which product you are buying, you can expect to pay more. This includes gasoline, diesel, plastics, aspirin, etc…
Glad you dropped by, Ryan. I was afraid I’d have to comb through former Posts to email you.
Biodiesel produces much less carbon dioxide than the petroleum based product. As a matter of fact, when Rudolph Diesel invented the engine, he worked with George Washington Carver to come up with a fuel that would make farmers more productive, and independant. The solution, use peanut oil and ten percent ethanol. The ensuing reaction produces a clean bio fuel, and glycerine. I mentioned this a while back here: http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=5157
These emissions of sulphurous oxides would be ZERO. Sulphur dioxide and trioxide mix with water vapor to become sulphuric acid.
Why should we settle for 15 ppm when we can achieve ZERO, quickly, and efficiently.
People are doing this in their back yards, why can’t we do it on a larger scale? Because the oil companies that are in the pockets of politicians would go broke, that’s why.
“Is a simple, cheap, plug-in electric car a dead issue?”
Yes, niche market at best. No broad appeal=limited profits
Hey folks, welcome to the new world of diesel engines.
I’ve been driving Diesel cars for years now (BMW and Audi) and there’s a new number that will be important in future bar-talks: torque. Power is one thing, but torque is pure force. Diesel Engines today usually have about 50 to 100% more torque than petrol engines with the same power output. They’re just much more fun.
pj
How does making things more expensive improve the market? If the auto companies could always make the cleaner burning cars, then they should have been able to sell the other lower cost ones as well.Are the rules only on the fuel?
Diesel,
Has heavy pollution..
It dumps heavy metals to earth rather then polutes the air, as much.
But, its a fools errand, if we dont use Bio-diesel.
Its just another way to keep, FUELING the gas industry.
“This is working along the right line of thought. You don’t make smaller cars or less of them, just find other fuels. This is the right direction of work.”
I assume you are being sarcastic. In that event, not everyone can drive a prius or bike to work. People have large families and need the space. So what is wrong with finding other fuels. You live in a fantasy land if you think the populous is going to drive toy cars or give them up entirerly.
Diesel is often more expensive than gasoline due in great part because it has a high “road use” tax. Since almost all freight trucks are diesel, it is assumed that every gallon of diesel sold will result in higher wear and tear on the roads. Without these taxes, diesel would be significantly cheaper.
Also, I don’t know if I would buy a diesel in the colder northern states. They can be a real bear to start and can take forever to warm up. But maybe that has all been cured with new technologies.
I think the big problem with gasoline is carbon monoxide emissions, not carbon dioxide. All plants need carbon dioxide to live and all warm blooded animals exhale carbon dioxide. If a car emitted carbon dioxide, I would think it would actually be good for the plant life everywhere.
CO2 is fine…to a point.
But, we are also cutting down every tree we can find to make into Arible land, for farming.
If you could get farmers to use 1 acre in 100, to grow trees for wind breaks, then you MIGHT have something..
I saw a diesel car race at Sebring (on the T&V) and it was really different. It made hardly any noise as it whooshed around the track. Not sure if it finished but everyone agreed that it was the car of the future. It was very fast.
Also, what a terrific, civilized discussion of this topic by some very learned people with very little enviro wacko comments. I learned a lot! Thank you.
Charlie,
“Also, what a terrific, civilized discussion of this topic by some very learned people with very little enviro wacko comments.”
I guess a bunch of the regulars are taking the night off!
But seriously, what is not to like about a diesel street car. It is about time they changed the regulations to allow for more diesel street cars, not just heavy duty pickups.
As for the racecar, that was the Audi R10. Audi makes some truly amazing LeMans style racers. The R10 won the 12 Hour at Sebring with a one-two finish (I think) in its first event. It is more of an endurance car, though. Gobs of torque! Don’t expect to see Formula One go diesel any time soon.
http://tinyurl.com/rkcu5
1. What’s surprising about enviros approving of diesels? I was at the 1st Earth Day. I’m still at it.
2. Mark [and others] learn how to use http://www.tinyurl.com — as you can see by the change I made in your link. It works just fine.
Americans don’t realize that the diesel sold in the US is not the same diesel sold in Europe. It is refined “cleaner” in Europe. So part of the problem with getting diesels in the US market is dealing with a different type of diesel. So what works well there may not go as well here.
The other “big” things with the modern German diesel motors are the effecient fuel injectors, and the turbochargers. The VW TDi motor is amazing. Take a look at what you can do with it at this fan club site. They sell after market mod-chips to increase the power. Look here too.
Last year I rented a Mercedes C180 diesel in Italy for a month. Fantastic! I drove the damn thing all over Italy for 30 days and only had to fill the tank up three times. I would put in BP’s Green Diesel.
Plus, the car could drive like a bat out of hell. I averaged 200kph between Venice and Milan (yea,,, I was speeding), and it was smooth as silk. The 6 speed standard helped while driving the hilly and twisting back roads of Tuscany. Like Old’s used to say, “This ain’t your father’s diesel”.
BMW has some good diesel motors here in Australia and in Europe. Their X5d is awesome. Too bad they don’t bother to send those motors to the US.
Here in Australia the price of diesel is significantly higher. That is because they dump more taxes on diesel based on the fact that large trucks use and they don’t have the numbers to vote the politicians out of office over this issue. But for people who drive a lot of highway miles, the higher cost is more than paid for with improved fuel effeciency.
In the US there is also the problem of different taxes on diesel depending on the use. Dielsel used for home heating is not taxed as much as motor vehical deisel. I think there are also some tax differences for stationary industrial motors. It must be very temping to use lower-taxed diesel in the car! How many highway patrol officers bother to see if the fuel has red die in it? (Untaxed diesel is died a unique color).
Mark T:
“Also, I don’t know if I would buy a diesel in the colder northern states. They can be a real bear to start and can take forever to warm up. But maybe that has all been cured with new technologies.”
Diesels are the best vehicles to have for the cold. These days you never switch them off, you just put them in a very low idle. They use almost no fuel in that mode and you can’t hear them at all. They start instantly and are warm. My own experiences were at below -30 C!
STILL,
It is fostering the Fuel economy and companies unless we can find enough DIRT to plant Bio Diesel plants.
We could make MORe alcohol from the plants then we can Diesel. Cheap and easy.
People are doing this in their back yards, why can’t we do it on a larger scale?
Neal Saferstein
This isn’t even a bandaid and we need a turnakit.
The first cold day and you’ll be sick you got a diesel.
I’m confounded by folks who thinks it’s still 1949 and diesels are hard to start in the cold. Vehicles built for passenger use are setup for easy starting.
I live in a rural community where half the population works in construction trades. Over half my neighbors drive pickups and 10-15% of those are diesel-powered. Even on a zero-degree [F] winter morning ain’t anyone missing a day’s work because they can’t get started.
Most of those aren’t garaged overnight either.
Glad you dropped by, Ryan. I was afraid I’d have to comb through former Posts to email you.
Eideard: Me, miss a diesel post? NEVAH! Again, thanks for posting it, and I hope you know I was just ribbing you about including the bit about the hybrids!
Eric Bardes: thanks for the update on pricing.
Everyone: Modern diesels are not too difficult to start in the cold. Yeah, you might need a few extra cranks to get it going, and it will be noisier than normal, but it’ll start no problem. The biggest problem is stations that don’t properly treat their fuel for the winter. I’ve had ONE instance in 6 years (and 123,000 miles) where I had fuel gel while I was driving. Temp out was 5 deg F. Properly treated fuel has a cold pour point of -20F. Below that, you’re going to have a hard time starting any car, not just diesel.
Mark T: All cars emit CO2. Gasoline cars emit CO because they must ignite fuel at a specific air/fuel ratio. If there’s a shortage of Oxygen, CO2 can’t be produced and you get CO. Since diesels run “lean” by design, there’s almost always enough O2 around to drive the reaction to completion, so you get very little CO. (sadly, you get alot of NOX too.)
Ron Larson: Starting later this year, US fuel will be nearly the same spec as EU fuel. I think their spec for sulfur is 12ppm, ours is 15.
Roc Rizzo: Good points, but there isn’t enough biomass to go around for biodiesel to solve ALL of our fuel needs…. yet. I’m sure there’s lots of smart people working on the problem.
OK. Lunch time.
Ryan
Three words: Diesel-Electric Hybrid.
#7: Commutercars.com has the answer, but not the cash. They want to make $20K cars, but are making $100K ones to make the cash to eventually make the cheap ones. A few million dollars from an angel investor could grant you your wish. But, this is the U.S., and we loves us our gasoline…
Eidard, thanks for the TinyURL tip. I will use it in future.
I have wondered why no one has created a diesel turbine-electric hybrid. I would imagine that a diesel turbine would be the most efficient way to convert diesel fuel to electricity and then use that to keep batteries charged to drive the wheels. A diesel turbine to drive an electric dynamo would be easy, small, and light. The turbine would only start up when the batteries get low and would switch off when charged. This would be similar to diesel-electric locomotives.
As for cold starting, years ago I rented a diesel Uhaul Ford moving van in Washington State. It took ten minutes for the glow plugs to get hot enough to start the engine next day when I was in Utah. Of course, that was in the early 1990’s. That was my last experience with driving a diesel. I thought I was going to be stranded with a dead battery.