This is one of the best rants about our current situation that I’ve read in a long time. The author is correct that we used White Phosphorous in Fallujah, and not for “illumination”.
I remember watching the macho movies and television programs of the ’80s during my childhood. Without fail, the “enemies” in those offerings – typically Russians or Middle Easterners – were ruthless tyrants who would stop at nothing to accomplish their goals. Torturing hostages. Murdering innocent women and children. Committing unspeakable depravity.
Because, in today’s “with us or against us” environment, I can honestly say that if you voted for Bush, if you still support this man, than you are just as guilty of these crimes against humanity as he is. And I don’t care how you came about your support for Bush, whether he appealed to your moral values, your economic interests or even your desire to share a drink with the guy.
And now we have Haditha to deal with. Have we forever lost our moral underpinnings? All I know is that it will take us just as long to recover from what Bush and his ilk have done to our reputation as it will take our society to recover from his domestic policies.
you’re an idiot. How DARE you say our troops are the evil ones in iraq. Why don’t you watch that HBO documentary on the ER in iraq, and what they do to our troops! Shoot their eyes out, blow their legs up, blow their whole bodies up!
You are an anti-american. You don’t deserve to be in this country.
I sure hope kimball’s comments were sarcasm
War is a messy business, people get killed, alot of people. Its been the way of this Earth for thousands of years. Those who are opposed to it for any reason will eventually become its victims. Only the strong survive, no matter how repubnant it may be to the left leaners of the world.
Actually, Thomas, the article wasn’t talking about the troops at all.
It was talking about YOU.
Maybe you should finally break down and learn to read, eh?
I think that before you make such statements you should have all the facts. I just watched the CNN story on this, and they even note that after the 3rd time the story is told by one of the girls, she states that when she was getting ready for school, she knew that the bomb was going to go off, so she covered her ears…
So, does this tell us that she had knowledge that there was a bomb? Could someone in the house had a detonator? Could sonmeone in he houses have opened fire on the Marines? Why are we so qucik to believe these people over our own troops before hearing all the facts? Have you ever heard of war propaganda? I only hang my head in shame for the fact that people make such quick assumptions in cases like this against our own soldiers defending our freedoms.
A typical respone for a Bush supporter. Instead of using real arguments it all comes down to violent personal insults.
No one said troops are to blame, Tommy. It’s Bush that’s being blamed…
We all know that our soldiers are pawns in the Iraq war. It is the higher-ups that give orders to use such weapons of mass destruction. This administration started a war that was about Good verses Evil with the Americans supposedly on the Good side. Just how many evil actions can Good do before it turns Evil too?
It is up to the government to protect its citizens within the bounds of the Constitution. Beyond that it is up to the citizen to protect himself within the bounds of moral character.
I support our troops. But the evil doers in this administration are making our soldiers perform their dirty work.
I really hope Thomas is being sarcastic…
I agree with Higghawker, leave our soldiers out of this rant.
So what do you professional hand wringers want to do about the war? Quit? If you think the next President is going to leave the second largest oil reserves in the world to the Iranians or worse you are really naive’.
see this is the problem. Thomas states his thoughts but who is really reading them and understanding what he is saying? Not once were troops brought up but thats what some people got.
I was in the army for 3 years. We never used that before and never was going to. if its true that we are using white phosphorus then our leaders are not better then the terriosts. I am sorry but this excerpt is bullshit.
Col Venable told the BBC’s PM radio programme that the US army used white phosphorus incendiary munitions “primarily as obscurants, for smokescreens or target marking in some cases.
A chemical that has the only job of burning flesh. After reading this i think george w should be brought up on war crimes. saddam used chemical weapons and look where he is. This thought disgusts me. If you voted for bush then i hope you are happy. He is ruining america.
Nice job george you jack hole
I was being sarcastic.
I’m sorry, I felt bored.
=P
How dare you people even speak in such ways about our soldiers. These brave men and women are nothing short of amazing.
If you people don’t like this country, you can move. You know what, go to Canada or Mexico. It’s the bleeding heart Liberals like you that make this country soo crappy.
If it were up to you people everyone would be speaking Spanish and would have no freedom of speech.
The point is not about the troops, who basically do what they are assigned, and do it with bravery and integrity. The point is that the pinheads who run the current administration marched us into this situation in defiance of the realities of war. This was a war of choice. It was a blatant exercise of pure military power, run by a bunch of fat rich white boys most of whom had never been to war. They thought they were smarter than everyone and that the rules didn’t apply. And while a lot of people said it was a bad idea, they ignored the advice and shoved our noses into this fiasco, where we’ll be losing our soldier’s blood and limbs for many years to come.
We should use every tool (weapon) at our disposal.. The terrorists use whatever they can find.. Why shouldn’t we? Would the terrorists show “restraint”? I doubt it. The U.S. has shown more restraint than any superpower in history.
dude,
we all love our troops, and we all appreciate their sacrifice, and we all know that these fine brave men and women believe that what they are doing is protecting us here at home, we really do.
but to believe that just because a man or woman dons an army uniform that he or she automagically becomes a saint and is incapable of commiting crime is inexcusably naive and frankly, kinda stupid.
to the extent that we do not hold our soldiers to account for criminal actions, we condone criminal behavior, and that sir, is an untenable position, unless you do actually condone criminal behavior.
//ken
“We’re those people now.”
Come on now…. In WWII we rounded up american citizens, put them in camps and dropped nuclear bombs on CIVILIAN CITIES!!
War is hell, bottom line… people die in wars…. and frankly, if I were on some roof in faluja getting shot at and I knew that by firing this illuminating shell at the people shooting at me was a good way to flush them out… I would do it.
I completely understand being against the war…. but pointing out certain parts of a war that upset you is silly….. its a war.. its not like being at a nascar race and a tire flies in the stands and kills some people…. the whole point of war is to kill….
IMO, if this country is going to fight a war, we should fight it as ugly, and as quickly as we can to get it over with… and if we cant justify fighting a war that way, we shouldnt fight it.
@ #16…
How can ANYONE still walk around saying this?! I thought the point of being the “good guys” was doing what is right. I’m sure we could get loads of things that we’d like to have in the short term, but being decent and civilized, sometimes we use restraint. By your model, I suppose the question could be asked why NOT to steal from your neighbor…if he used your rule of thumb, you’d have to assume he was going to steal from you. It is just so base a reduction of what I thought this country was about to say we should act with the same morality as the terrorists…who, last I checked, were not so simply equated with the nation called Iraq. So many over-simplifications.
Or, let’s just nuke ANYONE who gets in our way..I mean, surely our friends and allies will understand that we were just utilizing the resources at our disposal…which I believe is what the Bush administration thinks of the soldiers’ lives he’s alloted to winning whatever goal it was he had to win in Iraq. Talk to HIM about our fine soldiers…he’s the one (or his admin) making the decisions to use them up in the manner so decided…but, hey, they’re there for our use, right?
Dvorak – “moral underpinnings”???
Have you gone mad? I have come to expect you to be the one to wake people up with the voice of reason, but in this case, you seem to require some assistance.
America’s so called moral underpinnings in reality are and always have been an ideal that we have continuously failed to live up to. This ideal, while admirable and should never be abandoned, has come to be mistaken as the “way america is”. In reality, it is the way we would like to be seen, in fact most human beings in any country would like to be seen this way.
This account of brutality is nothing compared to the things we never hear about, going on constantly every day. Both sides are commiting grusome acts against humanity. Who introduced the idea that war itself is not a crime against humanity?
And lest all you one-dimensional readers should fire back at me in hostility, claiming traitor or liberal, let me clarify – I submit that our beloved brothers and sisters, sons and daughters, servicemen and women in armed forces are just as much victims of this crime against humanity. Let me ask you – would you sleep well at night knowing you had killed innocent women and children? Their poor souls are forever stained.
War makes monsters of us all.
but to believe that just because a man or woman dons an army uniform that he or she automagically becomes a saint and is incapable of commiting crime is inexcusably naive and frankly, kinda stupid.
Strongly agree…
Just look back to Mai Lai – or Abu Ghraib – to find “our troops” playing the parts of heroes and villains…
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/mostert/040518
While our heroes far outnumber our villains, the damage those few cause is devastating to our cause.
My greatest fear is that we will hear our troops utter that horrifying phrase: “I was only following orders…”
I can’t help but feel that Bush has turned us into the kind of nation we used to defend the world against.
K,
“We’re those people now.”
Come on now…. In WWII we rounded up american citizens, put them in camps and dropped nuclear bombs on CIVILIAN CITIES!!
Those cities in Japan made war munitions. For several days BEFORE the dropping of the bombs leafletts were dropped in Japanese warning about the bombing to come. Before the bombing efforts were made to get the Japanese to surrender. The Emperor wouldn’t. They were going to fight to the end.
It is easy to second guess things after the fact. It is easy to dream up all sorts of senerios that didn’t happen but coulda, woulda, shoulda.
It was a sad event. War is sad, but sometimes neccessary.
For the ones trying to be sarcastic above….it JUST doesn’t translate over message boards. And it amazes me when people try this, they’re totally flabbergasted that no one picks up on it.
Sarcasm can only work if people know the person and their views first-hand…like if Dvorak were to all of a sudden say “I love the rabid Mac fans and I think they’re the most stable people in the world”. We would all know he was being sarcastic. But when people like Thomas and Bryan say what they said above, since no one knows them, we can’t tell if they’re being serious or sarcastic.
“But when people like Thomas and Bryan say what they said above, since no one knows them, we can’t tell if they’re being serious or sarcastic.”
I agree but I also think it’s sad that views like that could be mistaken for anything other than sarcasm. In otherwords, scary that some people actually hold such views.
Since when did this blog become a blog by left wing nut jobs for left wing nut jobs?
So… are you willing to blame FDR & Truman for the “atrocities” of WW2? What about blaming JFK and LBJ for every civilian killed during Vietnam? Yeah… I didn’t think so!
At least in this nation we have the right to be whiney spoiled brats who use fancily written statements to re-inforce our own narrow minded views on the world. Of course your own views never seem narrow minded, at least, when you think them up.
One more vote in the, “People should stop whining about how we kill the enemy” camp.
We used to BLUDGEN people to death with maces, we used to POUR TAR on people and LIGHT THEM ON FIRE. Being “humane” to someone your friggin killing?
They die, because if they don’t they will spend the rest of their lives trying to kill you and everything you stand for. If you live in Israel for a few years your view on issues like this change greatly.
And I didn’t vote, so in my opinion I’m worse than the people that voted for Bush. And SOME people like to equate much of the US as “guilty of crimes against humanity” aparently. So what does that make me?
Oh wait, maybe that was another narrow minded view. Drat, gotta watch out for those.
The US isn’t at war with anyone and supporting the troops isn’t supporting any action the troops are asked to take.
True, war is messy business. That is where the true crime of lieing to America to get us into Iraq in the first place plays a role. There was no reason to invade, only Bush’s vanity. The villeins here are no the soldiers and marines, it is Bush and his sycophants.
Trying to compare what happened over sixty years ago with today is ludicrous.
How dare you people even speak in such ways about our soilders. These brave men and women are nothing short of amazing.
If you people don’t like this country, you can move. You know what, goto Canada or Mexico. It’s the bleeding heart Liberals like you that make this country soo crappy.
If it were up to you people everyone would be speaking Spanish and would have no freedom of speech.
Comment by Bryan — 5/31/2006 @ 8:55 am
Bryan, it is the mindless idiots like you that stoked the ovens for Hitler. The fanatics with your mind that took the food from the Ukrainians. The zealots imitating you that did Pol Pot’s dirty work. And the chauvinists that spoke like you that Saddam Hussein relied upon. Why don’t you move to someplace warm, like Saudi Arabia or Columbia, you’ll like the people there much better.
Just for the record:
1) I never saw white phosphorus used as a weapon against anyone, it was only used for illumination.
2) There was hardly a single civilian in the whole city, the people that were there knew what they were getting into.
3) Marines are called troops, not soldiers. 🙂
– Sean
I support the President, and I would vote for him again. And NO, I am NOT being sarcastic.
There has not been 1 terrorist attack on Americans in 5 years now. Seems like we are doing something right. I prefer to let our brave soldiers take the fight to the enemy, instead of waiting around for them to destroy a major city.
And before you even say it, everyone knows that Iraq was not behind 9/11 .. but we are fighting the organized terrorist groups over there now, and slowly but surely we will win by attrition. All the while our families and homes are safe here in the US and abroad.
It is fun to live in your fantasy world where everything is perfect, but sadly that is not the case. Thank goodness we have leaders who are not swayed by opinion polls.
Let the insults begin. I know I will be at the polls in 2008, I am willing to bet most of you will not be.