I’m torn on the whole issue. The emotional side of me says If a detainee is a murdering terrorist with info that could save lives, then let’s get all Jack Bauer on his ass. But the intellectual side says I don’t trust the government enough to put appropriate limits on what’s done and to whom, plus, the accused should be able to have a lawyer and a trial like Moussaoui. Ain’t nothin’ like living in a (dangerous) catch-22 world.
U.N. panel sees Gitmo as torture
A key U.N. panel yesterday joined European and United Nations leaders in urging the Bush administration to close the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, saying the indefinite detention of terrorism suspects there violates the world’s ban on torture.
The report by the Committee Against Torture came as the U.S. military disclosed that prisoners wielding improvised weapons clashed with guards trying to stop a detainee from apparently committing suicide.
The panel also said the United States should ensure that no prisoner is subjected to torture.
And then there’s this:
Big Fish: It’s Time To Put The al-Qaida Ringleaders On Trial
Four and a half years after Sept. 11, we are still struggling to decide whether this “War on Terror” should be fought in courts, on a battlefield, or in some black hole in between. The government uses courts to prosecute low-level terrorists: the guys who trained at camps in Afghanistan, or played paintball in the Virginia woods. But it uses the rules of war, modified for its own convenience, to indefinitely hold the ringleaders either at Guantanamo or at so-called “black sites” around the world. Those black sites were appealing precisely because the government intended to hold no trials. There was never a plan for what would happen next.
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The problem with the legal argument—and, to be fair, it’s a point that I have made myself—is that it’s a cop-out. Claiming that torture evidence could taint future prosecutions was, initially, a very good argument against abusing captives. But, years after the torture has happened, it’s somehow morphed into an argument against holding open criminal trials. The government still has a legal and constitutional burden to afford its prisoners some due process. That doesn’t end because it decided to torture them.
#28–Shadone and UNCLE DAVE: “When you son or Daughter Dies in the next terrorist act because a prisoner was released from Gitmo” //// A lot more likely the next killed Son or Daughter will be because we unilterally for no good reason invaded Iraq, failed to establish law and order, and used torture. The establishment of Gitmo alone is hardly even a footnote.
Uncle Dave–I know you think moral relativity is a crime against good thinking and morals. Should amuse you to fall victim to it.
Bobbo, are #28,#22 popular opinions in the US?
I find it so difficult that people can be so blind to something so obvious.
#32–Jimbo==only a valid survey could show that. My own “gut” feel is that such attitudes are very prevalent. Americans form their personalities off TV and right now one of the most iconic characters is “Jack Bauers (Bowers?)” a spy type guy who “bucks the system” by violating direct orders and killing and torturing whoever is in his way to get the bad guy.
He is quoted as if a real person by most of our political leadership.
He has otherwise rational people like Uncle Dave on the ropes about the morality/pragmatism of torture.
Its not “America” that will corrupt/is corrupting the World, but rather Hollywood and Business forming the consuming culture of avarice and class envy wrapped in religious self-righteousness.
But as I said===we need a valid survey cause I’m just projecting my own prejudices. Thanks for the invitation to do so.
anytime,
thank YOU for the posts, extremely informative, keep it up
#34–jimbo==My posts are not informative. The are attitude and opinion pieces most often even somewhat detached from “facts.” Its all interactive and definitional but facts are easily manipulated whereas morals should be constant .
The big trick is choosing the right morals. The most often failure there is substituting religion for morals which is the devils trick. ((Devil = Agent of God)).
If we talk long enough, I’m sure to piss you off. Thats my goal, but to do it honestly.