The illegal alien population in the United States is between 11.5 million and 12 million…The study by the Pew Hispanic Center also found that “unauthorized migrants” comprise 24 percent of the labor force in farming, 17 percent in cleaning, 14 percent in construction and 12 percent in food preparation.
“The picture we have of this population is that, in spite of efforts to control unauthorized migration, the numbers have continued to grow, the rate of growth appears to be continuing at about the same level, we appear to be adding about half a million a year,” Mr. Passel said.
The report said that between 2000 and 2005, 1.5 million Mexicans entered the United States illegally. Mexicans account for 56 percent of the illegal alien population, and other Latin American countries account for 22 percent.
Of course, the percentages vary from state-to-state. I live in a border state and easily 90% of all construction workers are illegal migrants. There are whole trades where virtually the entire workforce is illegal.
Mexicans replace the other form of cheap labor that America has but does not utilize because they are not nearly as hard-working or disciplined as these illegal immigrants. They are young black American men. The Mexicans do hard work on construction sites, Black men do hard time in prisons. The only thing that is going save young Black men in America is if they get religionized at a very early age to suppress the savage part of us that we must all conquer (and do, and did thanks to our parents).
This is the number one biggest screw-up of the Bush Administration. Any domestic terrorism committed by foreign peoples that happens in the next 5-10 years will be a direct result of the ridiculous way Bush and company have treated the border issue.
Well, terrorists enter your country as legal immigrants. They stay a while, blend in and then attack.
I guess you can be worried by an increase in crime, but terrorism? Terrorists don’t cross the border that way.
It is rediculous that it is allowed. Such flagrant violation of the laws of this country is not good.
Give employers a fool proof way to check status, and then once that’s in place, fine them lots of money for violations. Multiple violations, they go to jail. End of ILLEGAL immigration problem.
A good argument can be made that we need to increase our immigration quotas and/or create a guest worker program, but we should not allow that to interfere with true security concerns.
“Terrorists don’t cross the border that way.”
Not paying much attention these days are you? They’ve caught a handful coming in from both Canada and Mexico over the last 6 years. If you catch one, you missed ten.
Student and work visas are no longer the only means by which they enter the U.S. Of course, strengthening the borders also means stricter controls on those avenues as well. All around, this Administration has failed in all things border-related.
David,
“religionized”???? This country, and the world for that matter, would be in much better shape with a little de-religionization!!!
David: Religious is certainly not the same as Ethical. Go to any religious channel and watch the TV preacher/minister/priest (of any kind) for awhile, especially where he/she starts dunning the audience for money “for the ministry.” Incidentally, what will save young black men (and women) is education, which sure won’t make them want to be farm workers or construction workers.
It is true that illegals work very hard for the pittance they get. That’s why the “guest worker” program Lou refers to might make sense, as long as the permit can be verified, and employers are fined or jailed for hiring illegals that don’t have permits.
Wayne good point. All you have to do is go to any major sporting event, and you have to ask yourself where are these terrorists? I know in some way its a ‘lull of saftey’ but I guess it comes down to one of two things.. Either our secret police, prisons & interrogations actually work, or they are just waiting……
Either way I don’t like it.
In the Washington State of 20 years ago, people from Mexico were few and the Mexican restaurants sucked. Today, the grocery stores have entire aisles with Saint- themed candles and rows of exotic chilies and the spices that only people from Mexico know how to use. Legal or illegal – I don’t know. But I do know that the population has increased dramatically.
So what has the government been doing since 9/11? What have they been doing with our tax money? Obviously not securing the borders. Aside from spying on its citizens, has this administration got anything to show for the last five years? How are we safer today than we were before 9/11? Do they use 9/11 for anything besides scaring us into submission?
But don’t worry, at least the ports will be safe, right?
> This is the number one biggest screw-up of the Bush
> Administration. Any domestic terrorism committed by foreign
> peoples that happens in the next 5-10 years will be a
> direct result of the ridiculous way Bush and company have
> treated the border issue.
I have to say that I have hard time arguing with this one. The state of the border is a four alarm cluster f***.
The math does not seem right.
If “1.5 million Mexicans have entered since 2000”, and you assume another 1.5 million non-Mexicans (which is more generous than the figures they cite), that’s only 25% of the 12 million total.
News organizations should have a “Math Editor” that can check this stuff, and help the journalist explain the numbers better.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113764595134250640.html
(may be protected.)
I moved to los angeles from chicago in 1999. The problem is this:
1) Residents in problem areas like SoCal, Texas or wherever are so used to seeing hispanics so they fail to see the increase in illegals, and are taught that pointing out the increase is somehow POLITICALLY INCORRECT.
2) Residents outside problem areas (the rest of the country) dont see the problem first hand. The media NEVER gives an accurate perspective of the change so therefore they assume anyone complaining are racists or xenophobes.
So whats the solution? Well, its the exact same solution we shouldve had in place for the last 15 years. Shut down the borders, encourage businesses to hire americans and stop advertising free healthcare and free educations to anyone who manages to cross the border.
you have to remember that Reagan gave an amnesty back in the 80’s….so this 11 to 12 million figure is since that time. But where they get their figures is beyond me, since we know that for every 1 caught, 3 get in….Arizona alone catches between 130,000 and 210,00 a year. Thats approx. 260,000 to 420,000 a year coming through just 1 state, not counting California, New Mexico, and Texas. That is a lot more than 500,000 as they claim.
The violation of our borders on a scale this massive is nothing less than an invasion. I know that 90% of the people that sneak in just want to make a better living for themselves and their families, but that other 10% is the problem. There are 17,000 illegals in the California penal system as we speak, for felony crimes. Imagine the % not caught. I don’t think terrorists are the problem along our southern borders, just plain old everyday crooks is.
I’m all for a guest worker program with strong safeguards, but no amnesty. And Mexico needs to be pushed hard to start making life livable for the ordinary citizens of their country, not just for the 300 families that own most of the country.
J. Cottrell, discipline can be accomplished in two ways for savages: (1) religion or (2) army or (3) a long, long time in prison. Immigrant Mexicans are not fanatical about their Catholicism. They are docile people, for the most part.Young blacks that I have observed in NYC are undisciplined. The ones that finally do make it out of the ghetto usually do it through entering the military, or having religious parents that get them an education. So religion does work but it has many drawbacks. It’s main accomplishment is the virtual castration of males and guilt-ridden females who are afraid of sex.
Joshua, I definately agree with some of what you say. LIfe does need to be made more livable for ordinary citizens of Mexico. However, I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “pushing Mexico.” The increase in influx across our southern borders is due primarily to the U.S. led political and economic policies in this hemisphere. Programs like NAFTA have produced great hardship on regional Mexican markets and have put more and more people out of work, especially in the agricultural sector.
If you want to curb immigration, you have to curb the need. This must be done on 2 fronts. 1) Reform policies our economic policies in the region, and 2) hold companies in the states accountable when they hire illegal workers. (of course, the latter will have its own sting when our cheap wine goes from two-buck-chuck to 10-dollar-…
malren
I am aware of only one terrorist caught crossing the border from Canada. And that was pre 911. Would you care to remind us of who else was caught? (Reed, the shoe bomber, was caught and held in-flight) All of the terrorists stopped at the border or airports are because of Homeland Insecurity stopping anyone dark complexioned, having an Arab sounding name, or admitting to being a Muslim.
It matters little how much security is at airports and border crossings. Anyone attempting to enter the US can do it quite easily through Mexico or by landing at any of the small bays or coves along either coast. If half a million Latin Americans can blend into American society, so to could any terrorist.
While the Canadian border may be porous, it is not even remotely the same as the Mexican border. Secondly, most Canadians are quite happy living in Canada and have no interest in emigrating to the US.
I’m not so sure it was NAFTA, so much as bad policy or no policy at all by the Mexican goverment. The vast majority of the illegals coming across are now from the south central and south of Mexico, areas of high indiginous indian population and very poor. They have been getting the short end of the stick for around 400 years. This is also the area of the Zapatistas, the only group of rebels still left in Mexico. The Mexican goverment has done everything except bus these people over the border, it relieves the pressure on the employment market at home, brings in a huge amount of hard cash, and moves the toughest of the poor areas basically to the U.S.. I just read that the hard cash sent home by illegals in this country is now the Mexican goverments second largest amount of hard cash right behind oil.
These people were dirt poor farmers long before NAFTA or even the U.S. was ever thought of.
I’ve just never bought into the idea that these people do the jobs Americans(of any race) won’t do. What the businesses that hire them really mean is, no American will work for 3 to 5 dollars an hour less than the prevailing wage, with no SS paid, or benifits of any kind. Thats why the border states are screaming, because they suddenly realized that they are paying the tab for health care, education and in many cases housing for these folks. And they are told by the feds that they HAVE to do it, but get no help from the feds. Meantime, health care for citizens is going through the roof and education is eating up state budgets faster than Anna Nicole Smith in a candy shop. Everyone looses, except for businesses, the illegals, but mainly the average American tax payer.
In Arizona and most of California it’s almost as rare to sight caucasion or even black American kids or college students working in fast food places, as it is to sight a Dodo bird.
My Dad hired a supposdly reputable contractor to fence in a couple acres next to our house in Arizona, the guy showed up with 5 illegals and 2 white guys, after they had been working for about an hour, my Dad came home and saw them, he asked the white guys what they were being paid, they said 9.00 an hour, he asked one of the illegals and he said 5.00 an hour…..my Dad went ballistic, he told the guy to pay them all the 9.00 an hour plus SS taxes or he would call the feds, the guy just laughed, so my Dad kicked them off the property and called the feds…..the guy got a slap on the wrist. A small fine and that was it. Apparently, no one really cares about whats going on, but us average citizens.
My fix
First, send any “undocumented worker” home. Make them pay the transportation costs using any assets they might have. If they have to be removed a second time then they forfeit all assets. Forced removal will eliminate that person from later re-entry into the US.
Second. Fine any employer that hires “undocumented workers”. If there are insufficient assets to send the worker home, the employer can make any difference. (or even pay the entire shot)
Third. Have a system where the SSN may be quickly verified. Just requiring seeing the SSN obviously isn’t working.
Fourth. Any “guest worker” must apply from outside the country. This would apply to anyone currently living in the US. If they have been forcibly removed then they become ineligible for the program.
Fifth. Any children born in the US to a non-American or landed immigrant, does not automatically gain American citizenship. Any current children born in the US to undocumented workers that are removed will become wards of the state if they wish to remain in the US. Note that the child could not sponsor the parents later as the parents would be ineligible for re-entry into the US.
Sixth. Build a fence along the border. As cruel as it sounds, use illegal immigrants already in jail as forced labor since they want all the construction jobs.
What most of the commentators don’t seem to realize is that most of these illegals also collect welfare, and social security money. That and the free medical care the obtain either through government sponsored medical care for the poor or through the emergency room, allows them to work for minimum wage, but often they really get more than that. Once a group of illegals, Mexicans, take over a job site it doesn’t matter how hard you work, as a white American, they won’t allow you to fit in and work. Unlike most Americans, the Mexicans aren’t educated into stupidity and are freely prejudice against whites, blacks and asians.
All this so that the rich and get richer and destroy this country and the middle class. I’m glad so many people stopped having kids and started having smaller families so that we could have all these crimial immigrants come over and take the place of the children we might had. We should worry about conserving water, fuel and other resources so that we can bring even more immigrants into the country.
Learn Spanish or kiss you future good-bye, President Fox won’t listen to us and King George Bush is busy getting his head out of Foxes rear.
My solution might go something like this:
1. Enact a minimum prison sentence of six months and a fine of 25% of their yearly gross compensation to any CEO/Owner in charge of a company that hires an illegal worker with a statute of limitations of ten years or more.
2. Institute high level biometrics at the border. *Every* person leaving the US would be required to register their biometrics on departure. *Every* person entering the US would be required to go through a biometric scan on arrival.
3. Provide tools to business so that they can use a foreign worker’s biometrics to determine the exact length of their visa rather than relying on the person providing proper documentation.
4. If a person is caught entering the US illegally, they would be banned from getting a work visa for life. The second time they are caught, they’d be banned from entering the US for life.
5. Provide a reward of $10000 for each illegal immigrant turned into the Immigration office.
6. Install a sophisticated electronic frontier in addition to various active or passive barriers along all the borders. I’d give border patrol the authority to use any force necessary for anyone on our side of the border that has been properly warned (verbal, visual etc.) I’d also give them the latest in non-deadly weaponry if they want.
7. Install signage along all the borders (not at the gates) that says in however many languages necessary that you will get shot if you attempt to cross and you won’t get the body when we’re done.
8. A child born in the US would only become a citizen when it can be verified that both its parents are in the country legally and have never been caught crossing the border illegally. If either parent has ever been caught crossing the border illegally, the child is instead treated as an immigrant and both the child and illegal parent must return to their country of origin. The statute of limitations on this one would 20 years for ciminal charges. Obviously, we’d have to have some sort of appeals process that would make exceptions in extreme circumstances (but those better be pretty extreme circumstances).
9. Quintuple or more the level of legal immigration allowed.
Basically, I’d make it damn frightening to cross the border illegally and I’d greatly expand the number of legal immigrants allowed for work visas.
Mr. Fusion,
I agree completely (isn’t that amazing 😉 ). I would actually add a seventh that NO, ZERO, NADA tax money be spent providing free education and welfare to illegals.
Thomas, the best solution is to conscript Mexicans into the armed forces. A whole United States Military Force with Mexicans as soldiers. That would satisfy everyone: Mexicans can become legal Americans if they serve 10 years in the Army while they earn a real pay check, pay real taxes and can support their families back at home; we could eliminate border patrol because the money would be better serving in the military than it would be on a construction site (and safer, both on a work site and in the dangerous border crossings); American families would not have to agonize over their son’s deaths while in combat; there would be a surplus of men who would want to join, thereby eliminating the National Guard Reserves; there would be jobs available for Americans to fill.
An all-Mexican Army fighting for the U.S. Write your Congressman.
See the photo on the top of this post… those are people that are working. They are not hanging out on the corner with no intent to work, they are not hanging out at the unemployment office, they are not selling drugs, they are not in prison costing us $45000 / year to keep locked up. They are working. They are supporting families in most cases both here and where they came from. They provide the low cost labor that keeps inflation low and your standard of living high.
Multiple studies show that the economic benefits brought by the low cost labor far exceed the costs incurred as the downside of the presence of this labor. For the states, these are people that pay sales taxes just like everybody else. In many cases, in order to show som e semblnce of legality, they use fake SS numbers, get hired legally and contribute to SS, with no chance that they will ever get that money back.
There is a big difference between securing the borders for National Security reasons, and securing them for economic or political reasons… don’t mix them up.
These in the vast majority are hard working, law abiding people that are here for one simple reason… to try to make a better life for themselves and their families. Their situation is IDENTICAL to that of virtually all immigrants to America in the past, except that they don’t have to ride a ship to get here. Be assured that your grandparents, or great grandparents would have done the same thing when they moved here as these people are doing today, except that it was not possible just because of where they were coming from.
Virtually all of us are descendants of immigrants that were just looking for a better life, or even just plain survival. To forget that is to forget our own history.
And something else to never forget… if you were born in America, it’s not because YOU did anything special… you were just lucky. Most posts above completely ignore that we are dealing with human beings… have we not gotten over considering certain people human and other people non-human, as we did with blacks and chinese just 150 years ago?
[Not]Awake,
You are completely, utterly wrong on this one.
When your grandparents or great grandparents or great, great, grandparents came to this country they did so legally. No one disputes the fact that legal immigration is good for the health of the country. We can certainly discuss whether legal immigration levels should be increased. However, that is not the problem. The problem is ILlegal.
You seem to suggest that illegal immigrants are the same legal immigrants and (as Yoda would say), “That is why you fail.” The situation is NOT the same as immigrants in the past. The big difference is that immigrants of the past did so legally. There is no question in my mind that the people that cross illegally are doing so in an attempt at a better life. Yet, by allowing illegal immigrants you are demeaning those that immigrated legally. If we are going to have any sort of limits on the levels of immigration we have to agree that anything above that limit is unacceptable or the limit has no meaning.
The solution is simple: we should strive to completely remove all ILLEGAL immigrants and prevent any further illegal immigration. Secondly, we should consider raising the limits on legal immigration and improving the process so that people do not have to resort to becoming criminals.
It just really irks me that virtually every post above mine speaks of illegal immigrants as if they were some kind of non-human evil invading species, to be hunted down, descriminated against, prosecuted, punished and otherwise mistreated. Most of the comments above are based on racism and ignorance, with absolutely no compassion for fellow human beings that are attempting only to better their lives.
I bet you all of the above writters are Christian, yet they behave in the most un-Chrstian way that I can think of… denying the poor the opportunity to better themselves. Some of the rhetoric is straight from Nazi Anti-Semitic booklets, only with a different group in mind. Shameful in the extreme.
And Thomas.. read my entire post. I am absolutely sure that those that immigrated to America in the last century would have attempted to enter illegally if the physical and geographical means (aka the Altantic Ocean) had not been in their way. The only difference is that the south to north immigration is much easier. They (your progenitors) had to ride a boat, these people have to walk… but be assured that those that were leaving their countries under dire circumstances would have entered America any way possible, including sneaking in.
You want to rant about something… rant about our jobs being exported left and right and a President that threatens to veto a bill limiting limiting the exporting of jobs and capital. A government that believes that a trade deficit is good for our country. A government that places business above the heath and welfare of it’s population. A government that is willing to spend 5.6 billion dollars a month on ‘fighting terrorism’, yet cuts back on the education of it’s own people.
A government that is so deep in debt that it must raise the ceiling by raiding it’s own pension funds, yet will do NOTHING to fix the expenditures problem. A government that is destroying the Bill of Rights while a large segment of the population cheers on (shades of Germany again).
In other words, having people smneak in to try to make a living is not our problem… it’s the perverted leadersat the top of the political system, and their blind, deaf and dumb (in every meaning of the word) followers that is the real problem.
refering to post #27 – they are evil even if you dont believe it… after all it’s your belief, and you are entitled to it (eve though it is wrong). and regliion is for weak-minded individuals, dont try and bring that into the conversation.
immigrants = evil. /enditem
T.C.
You make some good points. The two parts I disagree with you about are the costs of illegal immigration and the unemployment level.
Because we don’t know how many illegals are in the country, all we can do is guess as to what it costs to have them here. The social cost can not come anywhere near the receipt of any income tax, sales tax, or Social Security tax.
First is because society currently subsidizes every job where is no health insurance. Anytime an illegal goes to the hospital, society pays for it, not the ill immigrant. Currently this is the big argument being made about the wages paid to Wal-Mart employees costing the states more in Medicare payments.
Secondly, many of these illegals are being paid under the table and thus don’t pay any taxes.
Third, there are many using stolen IDs that cost the correct person money.
Fourth, because illegals pay few or no taxes they don’t pay their share for schools, even though they require more ESL teaching; policing and fire protection; or infrastructure (roads and sewers).
Fifth, because they can’t get drivers licenses, they drive with no insurance, which costs a lot of people big time when they meet by accident.
Now I don’t have any specific studies to back up my argument and you didn’t cite any backing up your points. Using current studies on the working poor in the US and logic is how I have arrived at my conclusions.
The Unemployment level of 5% is a phony number. A corrected rate would be much closer to 10%. It does not include those who have dropped out of the work force because they could not find work. It does not include those working part time who wish they could get full time work. And it does not include those are underemployed. I heard a report recently where the new jobs are paying an average of $9000 / year less then the lost jobs. But 5% sound so much better then 10% when the government wants to tell what a good job they are doing.
[Not]Awake
This isn’t about the merits behind the motivations of an illegal immigrant. This has nothing to do with the morality or nobility of their decision. This all comes down to one issue: Should we allow any and all to immigrate whenever they wish to the US? If yes, then dismantle immigration control entirely. If instead we decide that we are in fact going to impose a limit to the number of people that can immigrate then we MUST enforce that limit or the limit has no meaning.
> And Thomas.. read my entire post. I am absolutely sure that
> those that immigrated to America in the last century would
> have attempted to enter illegally if the physical and
> geographical means (aka the Altantic Ocean) had not been in
> their way.
Some did, most did not because the controls were not as strict and were generally not necessary until the 1900’s. One of my ancestors in fact originally came from England and landed in Nova Scotia (in the winter of all times). When it got warm, he walked (times were definitely different then) to the New England area where he met a Union officer that offered him food and clothing if he’d sign up for military service. When half the country was uncharted and the number of people immigrating to the US was in the 100K range and the number of people in the US was in the 10-20 million range, it wasn’t a problem. Now we have 300 million people and immigrants are coming in at clip of almost a million a year it’s become a problem.
There is no question that there are other problems but immigration is a problem that keeps getting pushed aside. The border states such Arizona and New Mexico are in a serious state of disarray. In fact, I believe that Arizona just recently deployed the National Guard to the border. It is a serious problem.
TC
If we postulate that there are no differences between legal or illegal immigrants, then why spend millions if not billions on immigration control at all? Basically, this notion would be best served by dismantling any controls on immigration entirely and let any and all come across. If we decide that we need to place limits on the number of immigrants then by definition anyone circumventing that control is defeating the entire purpose for having immigration control apparatus.
One key reason for enforcing strict controls on immigration is so we can control the rate and volume of immigration specifically because of services you mentioned: health care and education. If we can afford to support any and all immigrants, then by all means we should consider opening the border to all comers. The reality is that flow of immigrants is so large that we simply cannot afford to support them. Beyond all that, illegal immigrants do in fact cost more than legal immigrants (http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscal.html). Google will pull up numerous additional resources that substantiate the claim that illegal immigration is more costly than legal immigration.
If stemming the flow of illegal immigration causes a major worker shortage, then clearly the levels of legal immigration need to be raised. However, right now the borders are so porous that we have no real ability to manage the flow of immigration. Although controlling illegal immigration would cause unemployment to rise, that unemployment figure should have never included an appreciable number of illegal immigrations (after all how are they accounted for?).
I am not all suggesting we close the border. I’m recommending we control the border.
I agree with most of your points, and I sympathize with the sense that things are out of control along the border. And that law breaking should not be abided or winked at.
But I think it would be really easy to spend more money on this problem than it costs us.
There’s no need to go East Berlin over the problem, when there are gray areas, pluses and minuses in both directions.
And there is no perfect solution.
I think it’s clear that lax enforcement on the employer side is caused by business pressure on Republicans, and that such enforcement has fallen off sharply since Delay reshaped the K street lobbyists in his image. That alone may account for the changing nature of the problem over the last 10 years.
Its about time there was reform to use new technology to better enforce the law. Not just border patrol, but in regulation and reporting systems at the employer level. That would provide a big bang for the buck.