What they try in the deep South perhaps can be culturally moved over…
That should do the trick
Taipei Times – archives — A pragmatic editorial fromt he editors at the Taipei Times.
The only intriguing sex-related story in the last month came courtesy of Shu Guang Girls’ Senior High School in Hsinchu City. After completion of what the Catholic school calls a “life science course,” these children will be given a card which they sign and carry around like a credit card to affirm their commitment to sexual abstinence until they are married.
Setting aside the contentiousness of telling minors that adult pre-marital sex is a sin, the Catholic establishment seems to be oblivious to the reality of Taiwanese society. The average age for marriage for men and women in this country is almost 30, which means the Church expects its adult flock — and millions of other Taiwanese, if at all possible — to live sexless lives for most of their youth or else be branded as sinners. Little wonder, then, that a number of academics and officials have frowned on the school for its fundamentalist approach to sexuality and its aping of US-style evangelism.
It’s not a question of being “branded” a sinner. I sincerely doubt that that anybody’s going to be going around wearing a big A on their chest. Christianity claims an objective reality where morality is defined independently of societal conventions or practical inconvenience. If you don’t buy into it, it’s simply foolishness and can be ignored. But if you are going to buy into Christianity, then the behavioral requirements are inescapable.
And it’s not US-style evangelism. Biblically-based churches have always advocated chastity outside of marriage – in the middle east, in europe, asia, africa, and throughout the world.
I agree, I don’t see what is so shocking about this.
Not sure what the problem is here either. If they don’t like it, then don’t send your kids to Catholic School!
JoAnn
“the Church expects its adult flock [ . . .] to live sexless lives for most of their youth” so what is wrong with that, it not imposable, I am 29 and never had sex, is there are a few of us that exist out there. I has always been taught in the church that pre-marital and exta-marital sex is wrong.
The sad thing is that people do not belive you if you are over the age of 18 and claim not to have sex ever. I remember i had to go to a hospital once (2 years ago) and when asked ‘last time you had sex” I ansered I never had sex, the nurse asked it 5 times, then said “don’t worry we will not tell any one” then asked 3 more times, then when I kept saying “never had sex” in a derogatory tone said “what are you studing to be a prist?” sad state we live in that not having sex gets people mad at you.
Michael, do you masturbate?
IF you masturbate then you are repressing your feelings and sexual urges. If you don’t masturbate, do you have wet dreams?
Religion has virtually castrated you. Physically you are still intact but you act as if you are castrated because you hold a belief that goes AGAINST YOUR NATURE.
Don’t be afraid, man. You are actually causing more harm because women WANT SEX. Believe me, they do. I know women who say they want to wait till marriage but they have had sex with me. I am having sex now with a woman who is going to get married with her boyfriend. But her boyfriend does not touch her. I am doing her. She cannot help it. It is natural to have sex. Don’t fight it. I have dated even buddhist monks and even Jewish Rabbis. Dude, ALL women, no matter who they are, DEEP DOWN WANT TO FUCK.
God gave you sex so that you can ENJOY it. Most importantly, IT IS ABOUT CONNECTING WITH WOMEN in the MOST intimate way possible. I have turned down sex with women. A connection is important. TRUST me , Michael, there are hundreds of women that WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU, BUT YOU HAVE REJECTED THEM.
YOU have REJECTED them.
STOP REJECTION. IT HURTS and MAKES PEOPLE, men and women, SICK. THIS IS WHY we have a SICK world today. HAVE SEX. IT IS GOD”S WAY.
I think this “40-year-old” virgin stuff has been taken to the ridiculous extreme. If someone wants to live an unnatural lifestyle until they’re middle-aged, that’s their privilege. But for dried-out prunes and sexually dysfunctionall people to try and foist this off on society? Pfffft.
Or maybe we should just get married at 17, have a bunch of kids, beat them, drink away our paychecks, get divorced, and wonder why they end up being serial killers.
Way to go, Guardians of Morality!
David. 1) It does not matter if a woman wants to have sex with me before marage or not, I am doing this because it is right and also for myself, I have respect for myself that says not to just give myself to any one, and any woman that truly loves me will respect that, I am worth waiting for I am not here for someone elses instance gratification. 2) think about how woderfull of a gift it will be for me to give to my wife if/when I get married. 3) if a woman feels rejected by me not wanting to have premartal sex with them, then maybe they are not right for me.
“The only sexual perversion is celibacy.” Woody Allen, right? Or maybe George Carlin?
The Catholic Church and most of the world’s traditional religions that I have heard of believe that sex is great and wonderful… and holy. Its a fantastic gift that brings two people closer together in love and allows them participate in the participate in the creation of new life. Its no surprise that the Catholic school is teaching what the Church has always taught. Good for them. Catholics should be Catholic… living their life according to their beliefs. Its not just an ethnic or cultural club that you belong to and attend meetings on Sunday. Likewise, other Christians should be Christian, Jews should be Jewish.
I salute the schoold for teaching the faith and Mike for living his life according to his moral and religious beliefs.
When I look at someone who lived their life like Pope John Paul II or the Dalai Lama vs. the kind of life that “david” is describing… I’ll take the Pope and the Dalai Lama anyday.
From a biological standpoint, there are plenty of animals on the planet where very few of the species ever get to “have sex” and reproduce. Not having sex, or waiting for marriage is netiher “unnatural” nor “impossible”. Lots of people have, are, and will continue living their lives this way.
No one is “foisting this off on society” as “Mister Mustard” says. The Catholic school is teaching the Catholic faith. If you aren’t Catholic or don’t want that teaching then don’t send your kids there. Who are you to tell the school or the whole Church what they can and can’t teach? Who are you to tell anybody else how they must or must not have sex.
Some of the commenters have proved Mike’s point. If you’re not having sex then people will not just be uncomfortable with that fact, they’ll get upset over it. When the topic comes up I say, “this is what I believe and I try to live my life this way”. I don’t harrangue other people if they aren’t living their lives this way. Yet I see people on the other side harranguing folks on my side just for living our lives the way we believe we must.
The “side” that always touts themselves as the “tolerant” crowd is usually only tolerant of those in agreement with them.
Cheers.
guys, you do what you want. I’ll leave you with two comments, however:
(1) Who is “YOU”?
and
(2) The body NEVER lies.
if you are going to buy into Christianity, then the behavioral requirements are inescapable.
I has always been taught in the church that pre-marital and exta-marital sex is wrong.
The “side” that always touts themselves as the “tolerant” crowd is usually only tolerant of those in agreement with them.
Any questions?
>>No one is “foisting this off on society” as “Mister Mustard” says.
Sure they are. Just look at Bush’s refusal to fund any sort of educational or public health endeavor that promotes anything other than “celibacy” as a cure for all ills.
These people have a problem with sex, plain and simple. Perhaps they should go see a therapist, rather than trying to FOIST OFF their problems on SOCIETY. If you want to live your entire life without sex, fine and dandy (although it hasn’t worked out too well for the Catholic priests). But as far as I’m concerned, it’s just an important part of a healthy life. It’s not “holy”; it’s not “forbidden”; it’s not “dirty”. And I don’t appreciate my tax dollars being spent on programs that seem more likely to turn kids into grown-up pedophiles than into mature, sexually healthy adults.
If I had a dollar for every time John says “bonehead” I’d be rich.
Hi Pat,
Yeah, I have a question. I’m not exactly sure what your point is. The first statement you quote starts off with “If you are going to buy into Christianity”. This statement implies a choice. *IF* you are… If you believe in it… then you believe in it. Sounds reasonable and logical to me. Nobody’s holding a gun to anybody’s head. *IF* you don’t believe in it, then no one’s forcing you to live like you do believe it. There are some Muslim’s over in Europe and the Middle East who might like to try that on you with Islam. But I don’t see the Catholic school Dvorak mentions going out and forcibly dragging kids in and teaching ’em to be good Catholics.
The second quote is about what the Church has always taught. Yes. It does teach that. If you have a particular faith, then that’s something you believe in. But if you don’t have that faith, then you aren’t really part of that faith. So, if you don’t believe that, that’s your business. We’ll go on right on believing it and living our lives according to our beliefs… or making our best attempt at it, anyway. Does that bother you… the mere fact that we believe it and live that way?
The third quote was mine. Its always the political end of the spectrum that embraces sexual libertinism that likes to proudly proclaim its tolerance. Yet nothing I have said is about forcing anyone to believe or behave my way… Yet it is always from the sexual libertines that I see intolerance and get flack from just because of the fact that I’m not a sexual libertine nor do I want to be.
Live and live. We’re here if you ever change your mind, but we’re not gonna drag you into church and brainwash you against your will.
As for the priest pedophile scandal. Yes, that’s a terrible scandal, offense, outrage… you name it. But remember, it was a tiny percentage of priests that caused this problem. Statistically it was no greater than anywhere else in society. The way it was dealt with was what made it worse. And this was because the bishops were listening to the sexual libertines. They listened to the sociologists and psychiatrists and psychologists who said all this was not much of a problem. Give them some counseling and they’ll be fine, they said. Some of them even said it was normal.
And actually, most of the offenses were against teenaged boys. So actually the problem was not pedophilia. The problem was ephebophilia (spelling?). Homosexual ephebophilia.
But all of that is irrelevant to our discussion. A normal, healthy person is not going to become a pedophile or a homosexual ephebophile because they’re not having sex. Pedo- and ephebo-philia are mental disorders. You do not suddenly start yearning after children or teens because you’re not “getting some” elsewhere.
As for the president and his abstinence program… that’s a whole ‘nuther worthy debate to have. But its irrelevant in this discussion. It has nothing to do with a Catholic school teaching the Catholic faith and Catholic moral behavior to its students. I doubt the US government is funding a Catholic school in Japan.
Steph,
Its even more amusing hearing him say it on the TWiT podcast. His tone of voice when he says “bonehead” always makes me laugh. You can just hear the dagger plunging in when he says it. John’s a trip, even when I disagree with him.
Ok, so since this pro-catholic anti-sex message hasnt worked to any large degree in the western world, they want to try it in the eastern world? wtf people. jebus thats embarrasing.
Tallwookie, it is not an anti-sex message, they are not saying “never have sex, sex is evil” they are saying “Sex is Holy, and you can help to keep it Holy by wanting till the proper time to have it”
Sean–
I KNOW! I love it!! I’m such a nerd. I talk about John and link to this blog on my blog so much, my friend Dutch now calls me “John C. Dvorak’s internet bride.” –although just between you and me, I think he’s jealous. 😉
Sean
Yeah, I have a question. I’m not exactly sure what your point is. The first statement you quote starts off with “…If you are going to buy into Christianity”.
Good question, ask James. I didn’t know Christianity was for sale. I know that certain leaders are always telling us to dig a little deeper and send them some money. To buy into Christianity, is it like buying a Time Share?
The second quote is about what the Church has always taught. “I has always been taught in the church that pre-marital and exta-marital sex is wrong. ”
The statement is wrong. The Church has not always taught this. Early Popes and Priests in fact married and often had mistresses. This is a later development used a a power tool to keep the people under control of the Church. It did not become Church Doctrine until I believe it was the 12th century. Jesus never suggested pre-martial sex or homosexuality is wrong and if he were alive today I doubt he would clarify his comments by agreeing with you. Now, before you quote some Old Testament to me, remember you are a Christian, not a Jew. If you follow Christ, follow what Christ preached, not what Moses might have said.
You want to know about the “Immaculate Conception”? One of the biggest fallacies ever told. Around the time of Jesus’ birth, it was quite common for the temple priests to have sex with the women. They would tell them that it was God’s will they were doing. The women couldn’t become pregnant because it was so divined and they would remain a virgin. More then one incident God didn’t work his magic and they actually became pregnant. In these cases, the priests would declare that it was God’s doing.
I disagree about trying to brainwash me. The recent few years have seen a re-occurring theme about changing the Christmas season to pure parochial time. It was even suggested that church groups boycott certain stores for NOT wishing a Merry Christmas.
My money says “In God We Trust”. So what, do all others pay cash?
My county has the third highest rate of teen pregnancies of all 92 counties in this state. The School Board is full of Holy Rollers who refuse to allow sex education to be taught. They get lots of information about NO pre-martial sex, but nada, zip, zero, nothing, zilch about protection against STDs or pregnancy.
If I want to open a Strip Bar here in town, it can not be within so far of any church. The churches don’t even pay taxes and they convinced the town what business I may start? Darn, a few years ago someone wanted to have strippers in his bar on certain nights. Some holy rollers opened a store front church across the street to void his application.
I am betting the guy dissing the virgin aint getting much either. most guys talk the talk more then they get to walk.
“Immaculate Conception” alludes to a woman who wakes up one day to discover that she has missed her period for days. Months later she still doesn’t have her period. Months later her belly is full, and nine months later she gives birth. She doesn’t know how she became pregnant because she cannot recall having a lover. She was impregnated when she was UNCONSCIOUS she has suppressed the memory because it was traumatic. The “Virgin Mary” was either raped or impregnated while she was unconscious. That makes Jesus a bastard child. A boy without a biological father. This all fits in with the real truth about our origin which is that God came from His Mother (Emptiness or Nothing). His Mother came from nowhere. She has always been; in other a words a Divine Virgin.
Also if you look closely, Jesus picked a PROSTITUTE as his wife. He married Mary Magdelene and had offspring.
Today, there are people who walk the face of the Earth who are direct descendants of Jesus Christ.
Do you have the Jesus Gene?
The statement is wrong. The Church has not always taught this. Early Popes and Priests in fact married and often had mistresses. This is a later development used a a power tool to keep the people under control of the Church. It did not become Church Doctrine until I believe it was the 12th century.
Wrong. Yes, there was a time when priests and bishops could be married (before they were ordained… they could not marry after ordination). The discipline of celibacy for priests now is just that a discipline… not a doctrine. It could be changed again. No problem. That’s not the point of the orginal post or any of the comments, however.
And yes, there were priests and bishops and popes down through history who had mistresses. This does not mean that the Church didn’t teach that pre-marital sex was wrong. It means that the priests , bishops, and popes with mistresses were not living up to that teaching. They were wrong. They sinned. Belonging to the Church does not make one perfect. A perfect person wouldn’t need the Church. I’m not sticking up for those in the clergy who had mistresses. It was reprehensible… a scandal. But they weren’t doing it because Christ and the Church taught that it was OK. That’s laughable.
I am not well-versed in the ways of the priests of the Jewish temple. But I’ve been talking about the teaching of the Catholic Church, not Judaism. Although, I’d have to guess that any Jewish person with any faith at all would give you much the same argument I gave you above. The fact somebody in authority abuses their authority and does wrong is not evidence of the organization they represent condoning it and teaching it as OK.
That’s like saying if a judge murders someone then the government is really saing that murder is OK.
As for what Jesus taught, and the Old and New Testament. As a Christian, we believe that both the Old and New Testament is the Word of God. And Jesus told the woman at the well who was an adulterer, and the adulteress whom the pharisees were going to stone to “go and sin no more”. So yes, Jesus did say the pre-marital sex was wrong. He forgave those people, but told them go to and sin no more. If He says its sin and not to do it anymore then its wrong. I’m not going to even debate homosexuality here because that’s way off-topic for the original post.
As for your “holy rollers”, whoever they are… Again, the original post was about a Catholic school teaching students whose parent’s chose to send them there. That has nothing to do with forcing beliefs on someone.
But, as for your “holy rollers” on the school board and in local government. Hey, that’s democracy. It isn’t about pure license to do what you want. Its about a community arriving at a consensus through the democratic process. I’m sure there are Christians who feel the same way in areas controlled by people of whom you would approve.
My solution, and I mean that literally this is what I do, is to not live in areas run by folks I disagree with. For example, I will not own a home in Allegheny County, PA, the county in which the city of Pittsburgh is. For that matter, I won’t live in the city of Pittsburgh either. Those folks just keep voting for higher taxes. Property taxes keep getting raised on a judge’s order, so the voters don’t even get a say-so. So I just won’t live there. Problem solved.
That’s it. I’m done with this thread. We’ve moved far afield of the original post just because a couple of trolls have a bug up their about Christianity. If you don’t like it, then you have the freedom not to be Christian.
I’m done feeding the trolls.
This guy sounds anti-Catholic since many other religion say the same thing like Islam. Also this is not an anti-woman thing, it also applies to men. This just happens to be an all girl school.
Pat,
Jesus was a Jew and most likely a Rabbi. So he would have been against homosexuality. The Jewish leaders back than tried to trick Jesus into saying something that went against Jewish faith. They also tried to get him to speak out against Roman buy wanting him to speak out against taxes. Jesus replied give onto God what is God and give on to Caesar what is Caesars’. Jesus main teaching was love and forgiveness. His forgiveness didn’t make it alright to sin, but that there was hope to redeem yourself and sin no more. I went to Catholic schools almost the whole time growing up. We were taught sex ED and about STD’s and prevention. The best being abstinence of course.
David,
“Immaculate Conception” is possible today by man. It’s a thing called artificial insemination. The girl/woman doesn’t need any penetration so her hymen stays intact. If man can do this I think God who created everything would have an easier time. Jesus was never married to Mary Magdalene or had offspring. Haven’t you seen “The Last Temptation of Christ”. I’m Catholic and I even seen it LOL.
Mr. Mustard, Sean and anyone else,
Pedophile is relatively new term. Back then is was common to have sex with what we call children today. Mary is believed to be around 14 maybe younger when she became pregnant with Jesus (Immaculate or otherwise). The age of consent we have to day is a Society thing that changed for Society back then. Now it’s wrong to have sex with someone underage if you’re over age but it’s ok if their both underage. hmm
One thing Jesus was good at was pointing out the hierocracy of people. Like stopping Mary Magdalene from being stoned, he without sin cast the first stone. The main point being why is she the only one being punished what about the man she had sex with.
I think the South Park guys do a great job of this sometime even if I don’t always agree with them. Like in the movie everyone was worried about people hear curse words and not the violence. Or the show were the kids became ninjas and the throwing star went to kids eye. But everyone was upset that Cartman was naked.
Being Catholic I do believe the “Holy Rollers” spend too much time on the sex stuff since it is a person’s choice to do it in the first place. The location of strip clubs or porn shops near schools and churches I can agree with as long as common sense is used. Banning them all together no. Banning porn on TV no. limiting access to keep kids out yes.
This has been mentioned, but it bears repeating. This is a Catholic school. It teaches Catholic doctrine. So why should it be surprising that they are teaching Biblical morals? The Bible discusses the sanctity of marraige and that sexual intercourse outside of marraige is forbidden. So, shouldn’t that actually compel the Catholic school to teach this?
Some of you religious scholars out there might want to look up the definition of “Immaculate Conception”. It has nothing whatsoever to do with “Virgin Birth” (the incarnation of Christ).