Here’s yet another example of a school run by righteous idiots.
A high school junior has sued the Palm Beach County School Board, claiming he was ridiculed and punished for refusing to stand during the Pledge of Allegiance.
Cameron Frazier, with the support of the American Civil Liberties Union, is challenging the school district and Florida law that require students to show written permission from their parents before declining to recite the pledge.
Teacher Cynthia Alexandre called the 17-year-old student ”so ungrateful and so un-American” after he twice refused to stand for the pledge in her classroom Nov. 8, according to a federal lawsuit filed Thursday.
Does anyone really think that punishing and ridiculing kids will get them to love America?!
I support this kid’s right to protest, however nothing happens in a vacuum. If he has a right to protest, someone else has a right to comment about his protest.
In other words, I you want to spit on the US Flag, fine. Just so it’s understood I get to call you an asshole for doing it.
They shoulda just wiretapped him illegally and waited until he made a phone call to Osama bin Laden. You just KNOW any kid who won’t declare his allegiance to One Nation Under God is on a first-name basis with Osama. Then ship the little bastard off to Gitmo. Indefinitely. Maybe some high-votage motivation applied to his genitalia would show him what America is all about.
Quote:
State law says the pledge needs to be recited at the beginning of the day at all elementary, middle and high schools. A student must stand for the pledge even if he is exempt from reciting it with a written request from a parent, Harrington said. ”You cannot be disruptive during that time or any other time,” Harrington said.
Interesting. Sitting at your desk quietly is apparently disruptive.
While I do not condone the teacher’s response, teaching our kids to sue their way through things is not necessarily that much better in my view
“ridiculed and punished”? Sounds like McCain’s definition of torture! This boy was tortured for his first amendment rights! How dare we! It’s a good thing he didn’t wear a cross or wish someone a Merry Christmas or have a pro-Bush t-shirt or he would have been kicked out of school permanently.
Required by law to say the pledge? Isn’t this the sort of indoctrination they did in the old Communist countries like the Soviet Union and Cambodia? Not being free from coercion of thought was supposed to be one of the hallmarks of our way of life. I guess we need to paraphrase Pogo: We have met the enemy and we have become them. Sig heil!
That must have been the argument used by the students who were invovled in the sit-ins in the late 1960’s.
I disagr…. what’s that? I have the right to remain silent?
“if you want to go against the grain, you have to expect other people to give you shit about it. filing a lawsuit about it is an example of the *worst* of american society. sounds the alarm has it right. don’t protest and then whine and cry when someone disagrees with _you_.”
I’m sorry Paul and others with a similar point of view, but I just can’t help but disagree. You seem on one hand to want your freedom. But on the other hand you demand that we can’t fight to keep it. It makes no sense.
We’re a nation of laws. When something happens we can either let it happen, take the law in our own hands, or use our laws to correct the problem. Clearly letting injustice occur is not a solution. And being a vigilante is not a solution, unless you think students should be allowed to bitch slap teachers. Thus, the only option left is to use the law our society created.
I find it interesting that this site won’t post my comments, Steve. Pretty telling. So much for how you care about disagreement.
Funny Steve, a nation of laws eh? How many freakin’ laws do we need to satisfy people who keep making that statement?
Nobody even questions the laws of compulsory school education, that being part of this country for far too long.
Joe, I haven’t personally deleted any of your comments. But this is a moderated forum so one of the other editors could have done so.
I just checked my email and it appears we’ve had some people trolling earlier today. Email me any comment you want to nmvzciehjfal @ hotmail.com and I’ll be sure respond to you, and post it if it’s appropriate.
Sorry, in advance if your comment was deleted in error!
“Funny Steve, a nation of laws eh? How many freakin’ laws do we need to satisfy people who keep making that statement?”
David, I gave three possibilities when confronted with injustice. 1. Do nothing. 2. Vigilantism. 3. Use the law to correct it.
You can respond by showing how I am wrong, but by merely announcing your ignorance by ranting does nothing to further this discussion. Blabbering at the mouth (or the keyboard) should never be mistaken for discourse.
Will you people ever get a clue? Rise above your animosity towards Bush and religion and look at the big picture for a change. We are talking about an underage child here. Do none of you believe in rules and discipline for children? All the kid had to do was bring a note from his parents and he could sit through the pledge. Too damn onerous, eh?
Free speech isn’t free and never has been. There are ALWAYS repercussions from our speech and actions. If you can’t pay the price, then shut the hell up!
“Oooh, they made fun of me for not standing. They hurt my feelings :(”
So what’s next? A six-year-old suing his mother over forcing him to eat his carrots?
“please explain where i’ve even suggested that. you’re interpreting what i’m saying exactly backwards”
You made it easy, the following sentence you typed was this: “this notion of suing everybody who disagrees with you is BS.”
I never advocated that we sue everyone. The article never advocated it. So basically you’re making what’s called the argument of extremes. That’s when you take an argument to such an absurd extreme as to make it appear to be invalid.
The boy in the story is NOT suing everyone. His rights are being violated so he’s taking action. As I’ve stated twice already, his only other choices of action are to do nothing or be a vigilante. If you agree with either of those, I guess that’s your prerogative.
You expect too much from the human animal. We’re pack animals. If a pack animal goes against expected behavior it will be ran off or destroyed. Why do you think a 6 year old will naturally turn against another child that is different. You can’t alter millions of years of evolution with a few laws. You can hold it at bay with the artificial system we call civilization, but remove that thin protection and behaviors will quickly revert to the natural state. It’s instinctive to purge aberrant individuals from the breeding stock.
Pride in Ones’ Country: We as a Nation must work to teach each generation the pride of being an American Citizen. Yes, many things are flawed here; but travel the world a bit. The US Flag means something. Yes, I have no problem with a child (of his USA given right to NOT speak the words to the Pledge of Allegence to the US flag each morning in school)…but the reason he/she is able to NOT do so is because of what that flag stands for – individual freedoms. But the nation-state still wants the Respect owed it. I am a card carrying member of the ACLU – I disagree with most of their court cases, but you know what – thank God the ACLU is there keeping the government true to its laws. Yes, sometimes common sense gets tossed out the window; then the Law (whatever it is) should be changed. The child in this case simply needed a note from their parents, much the same way a note from a parent is needed to excuse being absent from school for illness, report cards, etc. I have no problem with a child not wishing to speak the words (during the pledge to the flag), no problem with said child not putting their hand over their heart; that’s fine – I do have a problem with the child sitting down or being disruptive or singing a rap song for those 30 seconds. I also have no problem with another child saying “yo, you are an idiot for just sitting there-jerk”.
Paul Theodoropoulos, you can call it games all you want. I guess I cannot know for certain what you meant when you said,
“if you want to go against the grain, you have to expect other people to give you shit about it. filing a lawsuit about it is an example of the *worst* of american society.”
But I interpret it to mean that when the government is screwing you over, you should NOT file a lawsuit. Am I right about that? I won’t say anything else until I get that confirmed. Because if I’m misinterpreting that, I have NO idea what you’re talking about and I should just drop it. Thanks!
“- i didn’t raise my fist, but i did stand, silently, while the pledge was recited.”
So when you were faced with an injustice, you decided to protest in such a way as to not raise a fuss. In other words, you capitulated. That’s fine. I personally would fight for my rights, even if I had to sue to do it. But, that’s me.
Sam Foley: What exactly does the flag mean? What exactly does the pledge mean? Where on the flag is an expressed or implied guarantee of individual freedoms?
On six separate occasions I’ve willingly made an oath to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic.” To me the Constitution is what America is, and the flag is a meaningless icon meant to give the illiterate something to look at.
Steve likes to frame the arguments and the solutions in his own way without actually listening or responding to what is actually said. Sounds like a lawyer. Good for the courtroom but in a debate it is not useful.
Now where is my pitchfork.
Who cares man. When you’re that age the pledge is nothing more than a rhythmatic phrase you say every day or week.
Look at capital Hill after 9-11. We all get attacked and they sing America the beautiful. 5 years later SSDD. The meaning of a word to you has a different meaning to another person. Why do you think we have so many stupid laws and the courts are backlogged with B.S cases.
If its not important to him, let him relax.
Paul, you surprise me. I did exactly the same thing in high school. And I ended up doing the exact same thing when confronted by the teachers. I stood silently. Yes, I did compromise, but to me (at the time, more than 25 years ago) it was more about not being a sheep.
I compromised, but I did make my point (as did you). And I settled it face to face. And after all (to paraphrase BL) it was just a freakin flag after all.
>>We as a Nation must work to teach each generation the pride of being
>>an American Citizen.
We as a Nation must work even harder to make America once again a nation that we can claim citizenship in with pride.
The fundamental (NOT fundamentalist) nature of America may be good, and it may be a great country, but our self esteem (and esteem around the world) has taken a big hit in the last five years. And with the scandals breaking, illegal spying on citizens, etc., it seems a little bit hypocritical (and pointless) to force children to stand up and recite a doctored-up peaon to the glory of the State. Let’s get a little integrity in the Administration to engender some pride, then we can worry about the window dressing.
State law says the pledge needs to be recited at the beginning of the day at all elementary, middle and high schools. A student must stand for the pledge even if he is exempt from reciting it with a written request from a parent, Harrington said. ”You cannot be disruptive during that time or any other time,” Harrington said.
The state law REQUIRES students to stand during the pledge even if they don’t say it? This sounds like more SHITE for the jerk lawmakers to use against people they don’t like. When I was born, I was taught in school that this was a FREE country. Now suddenly there are more laws being created every day to take away more freedoms. I say the student had the RIGHT to sit down and protest the pledge and this STUPID law.
The law varies from state to state. I left the flyer in my box, but we received a notice on December 23rd (I hear possibly as a reaction to a teacher in another county forcibly requiring a student to stand for the pledge?) noting that in Maryland, we may not require students to recite nor to stand, but that no student may interfere with another student’s observation of the pledge.
For what it’s worth, four or five years ago I asked my homeroom students to stand on the grounds that if any pledge / alma mater / national anthem / etc is recited / performed / etc for any country / school, it is respectful to stand (e.g., it is rude to specifically and intentionally sit down when the other school is playing their alma mater at a basketball game). However, about the same time the war started, I knew that there would be students who would want to fail to observe the pledge out of protest. If they don’t have the right to protest, than this isn’t really the US and the pledge would be kind of silly anyway.
There is that whole “liberty…for all” thing in there. I wonder what they meant by that.
Come to think of it, if the worst problem that I had to deal with in a day was that a kid stayed in her/his seat…….
I’m from a church tradition that has prohibitions against vows and pledges… and we’ve been even put in jail for this. It’s happened to us for a few hundred years and, we can say, it is always worse in war time.
Pledges, flags, sacred jingo slogans… what a pile of tribal jive!
I would no more think that a flag, any flag, was sacred than I would consider an ayatollah to be sacred.
But a Constitution, though… now THERE is something worth considering sacred! I think if you’ve got to have a flag, let it be the Constitution printed on cloth and waved high in the air. And another thing: You could burn that cloth up all day, too, over and over again, but it wouldn’t matter a whit, because a Constitution is actually an idea, and you can’t burn those, once they’ve escaped into everybody’s heads.
They should give up making students recite dumb empty pledges… have them recite the Preamble instead. (dream on).
I always loathed saying the pledge because I felt it infringed with my personal religious beliefs. I think its conflicting to pledge to both God and my country, whereas their interests are increasingly mutually exclusive.
In Florida there may be a law requiring students must stand and may only refrain from the pledge with a note from their parents. But then, in my lifetime, Florida also had laws requiring blacks to drink only from certain water fountains and other discriminatory actions. That is until the Supreme Court decided to finally uphold the 15th Amendment.
The 15 Amendment states in part,”…No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
Sound pretty straight forward. Florida has a law abridging the 1st Amendment. It is, through the teacher, punishing the student for using his rights of free expression. Since the teacher and school officials stand behind the Florida statute and not the Constitution, then the only recourse is for the student to have a Federal Judge enforce the Constitution.
So paul t. What is wrong with that? The state is being unreasonable and unwilling to uphold the very Constitution that they are pledging allegiance to. Do you really want to let it ride? How about if everyone just let all those Jim Crow laws ride and leave the blacks as subservient to whites? Or do you want to be called Massa paul.