Air marshals to patrol land, sea transport – washingtonpost.com Highlights – MSNBC.com — We didn’t have this much surveillance during WWII when espionage was a real threat. But it is amusing to see how a newly created agency suddenly bloats up as fast as it can. I love this idea of a smaller Federal Government involved in everything we do. Next we’ll be required to bring them into carpools.
Teams of undercover air marshals and uniformed law enforcement officers will fan out to bus and train stations, ferries, and mass transit facilities across the country this week in a new test program to conduct surveillance and “counter potential criminal terrorist activity in all modes of transportation,” according to internal federal documents.
found by Mad Dog Mike
Conservatives and Liberals should both be complaining heavily about this development. More and more, we are seeing federal officials taking over functions that should be state and local governance.
Remember when we were horrified about governments that could come in the middle of the night, take you away, hold you without charge for indefinite time, deny you access to legal counsel, torture to obtain information, keep secret records on all individuals for political reasons, have a federal police that is not accountable to anyone but the state, maintain secret prisons, etc. The justification was always “State Security”. Can you think of any countries in the past that fit that mold?
Now think of the direction that our country is taking, and the actions that our federal government is justifying in the name of “national security”. See a trend?
We are on a slippery slope… and surprisingly it is the right wing that is supporting this erosion of American values in terms of freedom, rule of law, democracy… and all we need now is one more attack in the USA before quasi-Martial law is imposed.
Do you realize that there is a new program in place and authorized to check your identification in hotels, banks and shopping malls and other public gathering places, and that refusal/failure to properly identify yourself is justification for arrest? Even if you have done nothing wrong or suspicious… just walking in the area is justification.
I’m reminded when I was a kid in grammar school we were taught that South Africa was such a horrible horrible place because people had to show ID’s everywhere they went and could be arrested if they had none. WHo knew that South Africa was ahead of its time!!
“… a new test program to conduct surveillance and “counter potential criminal terrorist activity in all modes of transportation,”
As if there is any “terrorist’ activity which is not criminal?
Show me your papers!
And we just sit back and take this crap. I can remember traveling by air just after 9/11. The government had just started banning sharp objects from carry-on baggage. I was going through the checkpoint at this itty-bitty airport in St. George, Utah, when the screener objected to my Track-3 razor. I argued for about 30 seconds over how silly that policy was and started to tell her about how much more deadly my pen and my belt were than that razor (I know: Stupid! But I HATE this lunacy). Then I noticed the National Guardsman with his M-16 moving to take position 3 feet behind me.
Well … principles do matter, but a $5 razor is just a $5 razor. I surrendered the damn thing and boarded the plane.
The dumbest thing about this is that box cutters are not weapons. I use to carry a pocket knife that made my “firepower” superior to anyone wielding box cutters. It’s the PEOPLE that are weapons! And PEOPLE are the best counter-terrorists! All of these dumbass government rules will never stop a single terrorist.
We give up far too much for the illusion of safety.
If the workers don’t get what they want from the MTA, there would not be a need for Feds as there won’t be any public transportation to patrol.
This is excellent. It should help prevent the checking of ID cards every time you get on a bus or train if they are doing a random surveillance type thing.
Theres a simpler solution, just allow all veteran cops (10+ years of service) to carry concealed weapons at all times. They use the same mass transit systems as everyone else, and there are far more of them than any federal agency could ever fund.
Not only would this help deter terrorists, but it might also lower the crime rate.
“We didn’t have this much surveillance during WWII when espionage was a real threat.”
Are you insane? That is not only a lie, but there is a threat here now. Or have you forgotten 9/11 already?
Shame on you.
Unlike you Joe I’m not shivering in my boots and shaking like an old lady scared to death of the terrorists that show up once every 8 years to blow up something. Do the math. I’m more likely to get murdered or get killed on the highway or die of cancer. Besides I was already raised as a duck-and-cover kid..another useless exercise in scaring the public. Go away. Go cower. The threat is minor compared to thousands of other threats out there. But let’s give up all our rights because of these idiot terrorists and the fear mongers who get guys like you to defend this lunacy. How many people died from breast cancer last year? How many from a US terrorist attack? Meanwhile criminals pour into the country from the southern border and kill and maim and what is done about that? Shame on me???…for what? For not being an old lady? When did this country all become frightened kittens, wimps? Pathetic situation. Get a backbone man!
I saw this one – with Hedy Lamarr, Paul Henreid, Sidney Greenstreet, and Peter Lorre right?
I’m with you 100% on this one John. The danger of an individual being directly affected by a terrorist attack in the USA of the type that can be prevented by this type of security measures is miniscule, in the range of being struck by lightning or less. A terrorist with a backpack full of conventional explosive can bring down a plane, or blow up a subway car, but the chances of being directly physically hurt by an act of that type are incredibly remote. People like ‘AB CD’ and ‘Joe’ just don’t have that sense of perspective, and are willing to live in a police state, abandoning their beloved Constitution and hiding behind the skirt of ‘mommy government’, in order to have a sense of security.
The real danger comes from a well planned attack, of the type of Sept 11, by trained people with the means and methods to do real harm. Something like an intentional meltdown in a nuclear power plant, or a major poisonous gas release (remember Bhopal, India which was Sept 11 times 100). And checking ID’s randomly in a shopping mall does absolutely nothing to increase our security against that type of threats. I don’t mind showing my ID (do these security people have all 40,00 names memorized?), but I see this as the first step in an ever increasing set of restrictions, where people in power eventually end up ‘owning ‘ the general population. Before you know it, you need permission from the government to travel between cities, and dissent is strictly forbidden. “Don’t like Social Security reform? Traitor!”
As is, just yesterday it was revealed that the Pentagon has a 400 page ‘threat list’ of groups that disagree with the current administration, almost completely composed of anti-war grouips, and that Blogs such as this one are monitored for dissent (Hi guys in black suits!)
Is this what our parents and grand parents fought for? A society that cowers over the threat of a guy with some dynamite in a backpack? A society that gives up everything that they have held sacred and fought for because they are scared?
Most of these comments reflect a willful ignorance of the events of the last few years. London’s buses & subway. Madrid’s trains. It will happen here. Of course, its impossible to stop every possible attack, but increasing security can prevent some attacks. Random searches are not onerous and are not the grave threat to our civil liberties that some think. To go on with the same security that we had pre-9/11 would simply be continuing the head-in-the-sand approach to terrorism that encouraged our enemies to see us as weak and feckless in the first place. Now we need to work on improving security at our ports . . .
Awake, you didn’t understand what I said. I think this is a good idea because the alternative I’ve heard is having all agencies check IDs before you get on board a train, bus, etc. I’d rather have some federal marshals in random places than have to show ID every time I travel. I’d rather have neither one, though I have no problem with effective surveillance. The issue isn’t stopping an occasional car bombing, but getting a hold of those incvolved and getting information about the overall network. DOn’t kid yourselves, their end goal is a nuclear attack. For now they don’t have the means to do so, but are you really sure they won’t get nukes between Muslim Pakistan, and eventually Muslim France?
ABCD
Once again you have amazed me. You scare me. Really. You scare me. Why ? Because I am beginning to think that you might actually believe some of the crap that oozes from your keyboard.
There is only one way to be safe from a terrorist. That is to build a bomb shelter in an abandoned, deep, hard rock mine somewhere and never again come out. You would be safe from random acts of violence. Free from attacks of bird flu and other pestilence. Free from the tyranny of the state. Free from ultra violet radiation. Free from having to identify yourself upon demand from the state gestapo.
Benjamin Franklin said, “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Remember Ben? He was one of the founders of this country. It was partially his input into the Constitution that has made this country a bastion of freedom.
Even with all the resources available, the government CANNOT stop drinking and driving. With all that technology, many Americans will die from preventable deaths because they can’t afford the medical care or medicine. With all the money in America, there are still areas that do not have clean water. With all the law enforcement available, there are still areas in some cities ruled by gangs. Yet this is of little importance to dubya. What is of importance to his administration is the ability to control dissent. Remember a few weeks ago when Bush was compared to Hitler?
In my opinion, the worst prospect of this “security” is to have more trigger happy Marshals shooting innocent, panic stricken passengers. Get these law enforcement officials back onto the street where they might do some good.
In my opinion, the worst prospect of this “security” is to have more trigger happy Marshals shooting innocent, panic stricken passengers. Get these law enforcement officials back onto the street where they might do some good.
You’re on the right track. It’s a matter of resources, and last I checked the streets isn’t that different form buses and trains. Innocent people can get shot there too. Would you rather have some unknwon marshals somewhere or have to show your ID prior to every boarding like with airplanes?
Join now because these gestapo regimes are like multi-level marketing machines where the ones who join early are awarded more benefits and privileges than the poor saps who try and fight the inevitable. Then you’ll have the power to harass and beat the snot out of the short-sighted idiots who thought it would be a good idea and supported it.
ABCD
Let me put this another way.
How many people died in the 9/11 terrorists attacks? Just under three thousand. How many people die each DAY from preventable or easily treatable illness. More then that three thousand. These are not people with the permissible word CAN on a card tied around their necks, THEY ARE DEFINATLY DIEING.
How many people die in this country every year as a result of guns? More then died in Viet Nam in 11 years of fighting. So please tell me why it is a right for civilians to have assault or even automatic weapons.
How many elderly die prematurely because they can not afford their drugs? Way too many.
Now lets add to the terrorists numbers. How many Americans have died from terrorists activities in the last 12 years. Now how many Iraqis did Bush admit to having been killed since he invaded Iraq because of “bad intelligence”. (answer is 30,000; Amnesty International believes the number is closer to 100,000)
The Homeland Security people have compiled a list of suspects. If these people are so dangerous then why have the Air Marshals not arrested them instead of telling these poor people to go home, they can’t fly. They’ve barred Senators and Congressmen, 70+ grandmothers, and 18 month old babies from boarding planes.
How many terrorists have the Air Marshals shot? None. How many innocent Americans have the Air Marshals killed? Too many.
Bush and the Republicans are well into fascist territory. You are the person Benjamin Franklin was talking about. You don’t deserve liberty or security.
>So please tell me why it is a right for civilians to have assault or even automatic weapons.
At least you recognize a difference between assault and automatic weapons. There is that whole 2nd Amendment, though that might not apply for automatic weapons since the Supreme Court case said it had to do with utility for a militia. Ignoring the 2nd Amendment, you can take a look at why Hitler never invaded Switzerland: every house had machine guns. I don’t think there are 50000 people dying every year in homicides. Closer to 15000.
All your other points have nothing to do with air marshals. By that argument, you should simply ignore any problem other than the most pressing one(We can’t spend more money for schools, since people are dying of disease.)
You’re by and large right about the ineffectiveness of the Homeland Security Dept. and the focus on airplanes. However, by your argument, we should take cops off the street as well, since you’re giving up a little bit of liberty for safety. My point is again that this is better than having to show ID before getting on buses and trains(and much more effective). This ID proposal is in the 9/11 Commission’s recommendations. Would you rather have federal marshals on some buses and trains, or would you rather have the full airline treatment before boarding?
AB CD – The whole point is that it is ludicrous to have to show ID’s, unless there is a purpose. Unless the ID’s are being cross checked by some other method, I could be Osama Bin Laden, with a fake ID saying I’m Pimplehead Smith, and it gains us absolutely nothing in terms of security. SO why do it? One reason only… to give the dumbass masses a sense of security, and even more, to provide a means of intimidation and control to the general population. I could give you a simple way to bypass the utterly useless and ridiculous airport ID checks right now, but of course I won’t. And if I know how to do it, don’t you think that people that have studied and are intent on doing us harm can do it?
This is how a police state starts, by intrusive intimidation and implied threat.
I’m sure that you have heard of the story of the frog in the pan of water, which eventually gets boiled and the frog never jumps out because the temperature increase is so gradual. The same thing happens concerning personal liberties. FIrst it’s random ID checks, then it is mandatory ID’s, then it is travel restrictions in and out of the country, then it is compulsory political education in the name of ‘state security’.
Awake, that’s exactly what I’ve been saying.
AB CD
No, that is not what you have been saying. You have been defending the civilians producing ID in order to board transportation. You have advocated “random” baggage checks as an efficient deterrent. You are suggesting that Pakistan will become a parochial Muslim country and then France will also become a parochial Muslim country. (I note you are not afraid that the U.S. Might become a parochial Christian country)
The point that several of us have made on this subject is that it is wrong to REQUIRE the showing of IDs in the first place. This is a small erosion of our civil liberties that we take seriously. Ids can be faked, the CIA is pretty good at it. So just showing something is totally useless. What is next, warrantless searches of our houses? Ooopps, Bush has already authorized the National Security Agency to do just that in October 2001.
So far the security provided by the TSA and Air Marshals has done nothing to catch any terrorist. It has caused a lot of inconvenience to a lot of people. As I asked in an earlier post, why has the federal agents used the No Fly List to arrest terrorists? Is it because they just don’t have any true information on any of the barred passengers? And you think it might be a good idea to expand this to other areas?
Shooting a passenger because he is having a panic attack is not what I would suggest we need. Terrorists do not announce they have a bomb. Terrorists go as far undercover as they can to avoid detection, including using fake Id. They do not try to get attention.
But then, the terrorists have won. We are no longer the free country we were under Clinton. We have become what they accuse us of.
>We are no longer the free country we were under Clinton.
Most of the Patriot Act was proposed by the Clinton Administration(some level of roving wiretaps started then, for example,) and the health care ID card became law when he was President. You object to showing ID to get on a plane. How about to get medical treatment?
Federal Marshals don’t check IDs, the airline agents and checkpoint people do. I’m sure you know the meaning of ‘rather’, ‘alternative’, ‘prevent’, which suggests you haven’t been reading my posts, or perhaps you haven’t been reading anything at all- just echoing what others are saying.
By the way, Pakistan is a parochial Muslim country with sharia law. It’s only the army dictatorship that is keeping the nukes safe for now.