Congress gets down to it
Chicago Tribune | Pullout debate takes nasty turn — Good article on yelling and screaming being done in Congress over Iraq.
I have a question. How do you “win” a war when there is nobody who can surrender? They’ve already caught Saddam. People are just killing each other randomly. What’s to win? Who surrenders? This war isn’t a quagmire. It’s a conundrum.
The Republican-sponsored resolution, by contrast, stated only that “it is the sense of the House of Representatives that the deployment of United States forces in Iraq be terminated immediately.”
Murtha, who received a standing ovation from Democrats when he took his seat in the chamber Friday, said he would vote against the Republican version, putting himself in the position of voting against a policy he had advocated a day earlier.
Other Democrats, many of them eager to respond to declining support for the war, resented being forced to vote for a resolution, the meaning of which could be easily misconstrued in future political advertising.
Murtha “introduced a bill yesterday that I don’t entirely agree with . . . but to take his proposal and trash it, trivialize it, is . . . beneath contempt,” said Rep. Jack Spratt (D-S.C.).
Having never actually served in a conflict, W. is probably just waiting for the credits to roll.
Gotta luv the name “Jack Spratt”.
This isn’t about Iraq, at least not directly. It’s about several vulnerable Republican seats in the ’06 mid-terms. The fact is the average American is sick of Iraq, and doesn’t care if they exterminate one another. I myself don’t see the point in spending 200 billion plus and a stream of coffins into Dover just to have a ring seat. Murtha called it correct, but this is a stunt. Many Democrats can’t be seen as being soft on the cause in their districts.
The only thing that can defeat us in Iraq is defeatism itself, and it is stunning but not surprising that too many people are willing to
see America needlessly defeated in Iraq either because they have a partisan interest in harming the President (that’s what this Democrat political posturing is mostly about) or because they are willfully ignorant of the stakes involved.
Our enemy just sent bombers to Amman to blow up a hotel. It’s not as if withdrawing from Iraq will make these terrorists go away, and it is a lie (yes, Rep Murtha lied) that ‘Abu Ghraib made these terrorists’. No, Zarqawi was a terrorist before 9/11 happened. (Remember 9/11?) Jihadist ideology is making these terrorists and it is idiotic to think that leaving Iraq prematurely would do anything but embolden them further.
“American is sick of Iraq” as if we dont have the sufficient attention span for victory. I certainly hope not and think not. Iraq has had 2 successful free elections this year, approved their Constitution last month, and a third one planned for December. Their army is improving each day and the democratic center is holding.
But we dont hear that, the media reports marine body counts but ignores the bigger story that in recent months we’ve kicked terrorists and insurgents out of towns in Al-Anbar and killed or captured several thousand of them. The terrorists and insurgents are increasingly isolated politically and the Iraq security forces and Iraqi people are doing more and more to defeat them (with our help).
The process of eliminating terrorists and democratizing Iraq is suceeding, as evidenced by the political progress, the growth in Iraq’s economy, and the political participation of more groups (eg Sunnis) in Iraq. IWithin another year the Iraq forces will have the capability to enable us to take a backseat and begin to draw down our force levels.
We did a good thing to liberate Iraq from Saddam and give Iraq the chance for a democratic future. It would be extreme folly to throw that away now by quitting before we’ve finished the job, especially given the heavy downpayment price in lives and treasure we’ve already paid.
Hey we’ve taken so many spoils from the war.
Saddam is captured, Al Queda who was previously not in the country now occupies it.
The people love us. They’re free.
Al Queda is crippled world wide.
And oil and gas prices are down everywhere, even france.
And Good old American companies are doing the rebuilding.
What a great war this was.
“We did a good thing to liberate Iraq from Saddam and give Iraq the chance for a democratic future. It would be extreme folly to throw that away now by quitting before we’ve finished the job, especially given the heavy downpayment price in lives and treasure we’ve already paid. ”
Well for starters, that’s crap. But the thing that righties like you are never able to answer is this simple question: What about Saudi Arabia? As long as you want to preach about how your country is supposedly “bringing freedom and democracy to the world” (as if that’s even remotely close to the reason you went to Iraq), then you can’t consider Saudi Arabia an ally. I can go on at length about the horrendous human rights violations that take place there every day, about how the 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia and NOT from Iraq, how Saudi Arabia is one of the largest threats to middle-east stability and the kicker, how just like Iraq, Saudi Arabia has NO DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT AND OPERATES UNDER DICTATORSHIP! Yet you “liberate” Iraq and consider Saudi Arabia an ally. Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. If you are for spreading “freedom and democray”, but consider these oppressors of that a good friend (and only for their oil), then you are nothing more than a hypocrite who is in a disgusting and inhuman way, conquering regions that have things you want and doing under the guise of liberation. Unfortunately, it took your people another election term to wake up and look at what’s happening beyond what Fox News tells them to see. Your President is going down and both he and his supporters like you deserve it.
“And oil and gas prices are down everywhere, even france.”
Which by the way had nothing to do with the war. It was after the war that oil and gas prices repeatedly smashed through historic highs. They are only lower now because it’s winter and people are driving less. Wait until next Summer.
If we bail out of this, we might as well withdraw from NATO, the UN and all other treaties. Why should anybody trust our word on anything again.
The Democrats voted to authorize this war. Now they’ve decided it would be better politically if they had opposed it so they’re trying to accuse Bush of misleading them. I suppose that includes all those statements made before he was elected. If he misrepresented the intel, so did Clinton and Gore. The problem for them now is whether they want to turn the country back over to Syria, Iran or give it back to Saddam.
They have lied about Bush, the war, our military and terrorism. We’re doing this to demonstrate to all the Arabs living under dictatorships that they have an alternative to supporting terrorism, that democracy IS possible for them and that there is no reason why they can’t have a better quality of life. This is the domino theory in reverse. If we can make democracy work in Iraq, the days of Iran’s mullahs and Syria’s dictatorship are numbered.
Forget all that, though. We’re tired of this war. We’ll tell the families and friends that the lives lost that it was all a big waste, because we’re bored, and this war hasn’t been wrapped up the way we’d like.
Get ready for more terrorism everywhere if we abandon the Iraqis now.
We should get out when the Iragis are either ready and able to handle their own defense or they ask us to.
My post was sarcasm 🙂
What a monumental waste of time.
Incognito — sarcasm and irony are a tough sell, sometimes. When our culture and communications are always distorted — and you get follow-ons from “objective” folks like AST whose fears overlay any perception.
“My post was sarcasm”
Oh I know, don’t worry. 🙂 That’s why I only quoted the one line. Because I knew some people would try to back the point up and I though it worth touching on.
“If we bail out of this, we might as well withdraw from NATO, the UN and all other treaties. Why should anybody trust our word on anything again.”
Well, seeing as how your President defied the UN and violated International Law by invading Iraq, you might as well withdraw from them. I also seem to recall him calling them irrelevant simply because they didn’t agree with him. Come to think of it, he’s embroiled in a similar issue with my country (Canada) and NAFTA right now (i.e. the WTO has repeatedly ruled in our favour over the softwood lumber dispute, but he says it doesn’t count because they didn’t side with him.) If you choose to defy the UN because your justification for the war was too weak a sell for them, why stick around?
“They have lied about Bush, the war, our military and terrorism. We’re doing this to demonstrate to all the Arabs living under dictatorships that they have an alternative to supporting terrorism, that democracy IS possible for them and that there is no reason why they can’t have a better quality of life. This is the domino theory in reverse. If we can make democracy work in Iraq, the days of Iran’s mullahs and Syria’s dictatorship are numbered”
Yeah, I ask again, what about Saudi Arabia? As long as your country is prepared to call them an ally while calling every other dictatorship bad, sit down and shut up because you’re point has no grounding. By the way, ask the Iraqi people how having you (and the constant insurgent attacks you brought with you) have improved their quality of life.
“Forget all that, though. We’re tired of this war. We’ll tell the families and friends that the lives lost that it was all a big waste, because we’re bored, and this war hasn’t been wrapped up the way we’d like.”
Or maybe you shouldn’t have unilateraly invaded a country for corporate greed, something that would have prevented all those soldiers (and don’t forget the innocent Iraqis, though I know they aren’t important because you don’t know any of them) from being killed in the first place. Ever think of that?
“Get ready for more terrorism everywhere if we abandon the Iraqis now.
We should get out when the Iragis are either ready and able to handle their own defense or they ask us to.”
I hate to tell you, but there is more terrorism everywhere. You know why? Because your foreign policy which goes something like: “If you have something we want, we’ll manufacture evidence of you supporting Al Qaeda so we can invade you and take it. This is our planet.” encourages it. The insurgent attacks in Iraq are increasing, not decreasing and that’s entirely because of your presence there. Every time you go “liberating” a middle-eastern country, you will foster more terrorism. Perhaps if you were actually liberating them, it wouldn’t be so bad. But though many of these people may be uneducated, they aren’t stupid and they know why you’re there. If there was no oil in that country, you’d ignore it, just like you did Rwanda and most other African genocides. They know why you’re there and that’s why they hate you. You want to liberate these countries? Then you also have to liberate all the others, including the ones that don’t provide profit. Again, if you aren’t prepared to do that, then you are just a hypocrite.
Sorry, you lose.
“… whose fears overlay any perception.”
What hyperbole. So, Eideard, what words of wisdom do you have for the 7,000,000 Iraqis who risked their lives to vote for democracy? Au revoir?
Well worth their sacrifice as long as a Democrat becomes the next President. Eh?
This is grade school posturing, especially by the Republican Party.
These clowns run our country?
When they’re not on a vacation (sorry, a ‘fact-finding’ trip) or re-running for office?
Well, I guess the Roman empire had these kinds of days before they lost it.
🙂
RW
Smith — Parallax Abstraction puts it nicely enough.
Iraq is a big country. Full of adults who can take care of themselves. Just because they aren’t Christian or white doesn’t mean they need the U.S.to take care of them.
We captured Saddam. Killed his family and friends. There is no reason to stay except for the money drain. My money going into Haliburton pockets… Daily. Weekly. Monthly. Yearly. Billions!!!!
All that party line crap you people are spewing. Your talking points… are bullshit. The U.S. pullout is not a defeat. We went in to get Saddam. Not Al Quiada. Any attempt to rid the world of terrorism will take forever and result in the end of the world.
There is no end to terrorism. Just like there is no end to rape and murder. Just like there is no end to curruption in government. Just like there is no end to covetting and stealing. If there were only two people left on earth, one would steal from the other at some point. If only as much as a freedom fry.
There is no end to this so-called war until we remove ourselves and let Iraq take care of itself. Otherwise everybody dies. You… Me… Everybody. It escalates and escalates until its not just Madrid, London and NYC but Salt Lake City, Kingston and Anchorage.
Turn off FOX news and think for yourself.
I cannot believe how incredibly ignorant you “lefties” are of the way the world works. If you do not stand up all the time then when you decide to stand up after sitting for so long, someone will knock you down because they know you will not get up again. Since there is no end to terrorism then why not just let it happen. By the logic on this board, crime happens. We cannot stop that either so we might as well leave that alone as well. The president enforced the UN’s resolution when the UN decided that it was easier to appease then to get a backbone. The UN is to Iraq as Chamberlain was to Germany. The reason the gas prices went up was Katrina and Wilma and all you stupid people that won’t let the oil companies’ drill, build capacity, and decided to go and wait in line for a tank top off when the damn hurricanes had not hit yet.
Stop calling people names. We don’t agree but calling people idiots, liars, or Hitlers just shows that you have no real argument and because your only 6 years old you must call names.
If you would not have such glee over your countrys problems. Yes your countrys not bushs. I could take the you more seriously
“If you do not stand up all the time then when you decide to stand up after sitting for so long, someone will knock you down because they know you will not get up again. Since there is no end to terrorism then why not just let it happen.”
The problem is knowing when to stand up and when to sit. Dubya (and yes, that is deserved Bush’s nickname) stood up and then sank to the same level he accuses the terrorists of. He has broken several International laws and most probable several U.S. laws as well. As a criminal, is he any better then those he uses America’s soldiers to kill?
“The president enforced the UN’s resolution when the UN decided that it was easier to appease then to get a backbone.”
Not true. The U.N. Had two investigations ongoing in Iraq. When they couldn’t find ANY traces of Weapons of Mass Destruction, Bush decided to invade anyway. Instead of waiting until their investigations were complete, as France and Germany were pushing, Bush tried to get Security Council approval for action against Iraq. When he realized he couldn’t get approval, he ignored International Law and invaded. Bush mislead Congress when he asked for an “Option” for war and then presented misinformation about Iraq’s weapons in order to get the votes he needed.
Yes, we’re all in this mess together. It’s just that it sticks in our craw sometimes to see Bush defended so vehemently when it’s so obvious he and his administration have blown it so horribly. Add to that the fact that they think they continually try to blanket the free press with their lies rather than get on with the hard work of actually fixing the mess… And to that the fact that lots and lots of people saw this coming, and they were studiously ignored during the last two major election cycles.
This is America. We elect the president we deserve. I just don’t know what we did to deserve this mess.
“Stop calling people names. We don’t agree but calling people idiots, liars, or Hitlers just shows that you have no real argument and because your only 6 years old you must call names.”
Strange, the only person calling others names here is you. Also, you clearly (like most right-wing extremists) either didn’t read the other posts or just chose to ignore the bits that blew holes in your point. If you feel you have the right to go installing your version of democracy all over the world, then you have to do it everywhere, not just the places that you can profit from. If you invade Iraq, but call Saudi Arabia friends and ignore places like Rwanda (where one of the worst genocides since Nazi Germany took place), then you’ve no high ground to claim. Contrary to what people like you may think, this isn’t your planet and your President is not the “Leader of the free world”, one of the most offensive and commonly used American phrases. I think that’s being demonstrated to you more and more every day and will become clear when your country is bankrupt (but that’s another story.)
I’m still wondering how this war can ever end if we want someone to surrender. There’s nobody there to surrender to us. And we can’t surrender either. To whom? Does anyone but me find this a distressing situation?
I do John, I definitely do.
What’s this ‘ignored international law’ people keep saying? Are you suggesting that the US can’t go to war without permission from Britain, France, China, and Russia?
The people who twisted and lied about the WMD intelligence have the blood of thousands on their hands. They should be held accountable.
We don’t belong in Iraq and we can’t force democracy on these people. There is no happy ending possible. We should just admit our mistake, apologize and get out. Let the Iraqi people choose the government they prefer and cut our losses. There is no mathematical rationale in sacrificing more American lives in a vain attempt to justify those already killed on a fool’s errand.
This is the largest blunder made by an American president ever.
3 words, Andy
Pot
Kettle
Black
This is definitely the crux of the problem. When asked, it is universally ignored by the right wing. It is my feeling that this is the result of attempting to convert rhetorical devices into real world entities – that is, the “war on terrorism” is not a “war,” and therefore cannot be won, anymore than can the “war on drugs” or the “war on poverty” be won. If you stop calling it a “war,” and realize that it is not possible to “win” something for which there is no measure of success, the real folly of this misguided tactic becomes clear.
Clear to some people, anyway.
It would be easy to report objective measurements of how the war is progressing, like # of attacks per day, # of people killed per day. The problem is that probably every conceivable metric that could be used is getting worse.
Once the Iraqis have enough troops to fight the insurgents themselves, we can leave. If we leave a vacuum now, the Shiites will feel they have no option but to arm themselves and fight the mostly Sunni insurgents in a Civil War. Notice that most of the attacks are against civilians, and most of those civilians are Shiite. The Sunni insurgents’ goal is to draw the Shiites into a civil war, but for the most part they have not taken the bait. That would change if we withdrew immediately or too quickly.
When there is a viable state, with a potent security force, and we leave, I bet most domestic insurgents will lay down their arms. The foreign jihadis will fight on, but hopefully Sunni citizens will see that a stable government is in their best interests, and they will no longer support the insurgents. The downside is that things will quiet down quickly, and then everyone will say “See, the U.S. occupation was causing the insurgency. We should have left years ago.”
The insurgency is politics by other means.
Now if only W. could explain this to the American people. It doesn’t seem that complicated, but our President hasn’t really ventured anywhere near this kind of explanation. This administration is so retarded. The stupidification of our political culture seems complete, since even government officials can’t seem to resist using the most base personal attacks on each other. Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter have won, evidenced in my opinion by dragging Al Franken and others into the gutter with them., as well as most ot the people on this thread.
Put a rubber band around your wrist. If you type out an attack against someone’s credibility, instead of their arguments, snap yourself back into civil discourse. Maybe we could get some branded rubber bands with “Dvorak Uncensored” on them. “Engage your mind, not your middle finger.”
Heavy Downpour is right. The war on terror is not winnable in the same way the war on drugs is not winnable. Just try to think of the conditions that need to be met to win the war on terror; all terrorists stop terrorizing, the terrorist that the good guys have not killed yet decide to not terrorize any more, good guys kill all the people they consider as terrorists or good guys finally move on to other issues like bird flu. As long as there is one person in the world hell bent on destroying crap, there will be terrorism.
The United States has been at war with drugs for over twenty years. How much longer will it take to win this war given that people in the United States likes doing drugs? Do you think the drug dealers are going to tell themselves that they do not need the big money they are making?
Terrorism, crime and drugs are a people problem that can not be solved with wars.
One possible problem here is that Bush is fighting his own “Jihad” there and evidently expects “God” to come down and resolve it while Cheney is likely supporting it for financial reasons so you can expect this to continue status quo for the foreseeable future or until the U.S. can’t pay the interest payments on the National debt anymore.
BTW, you made a lot of good and valid points Parallax Abstraction. I can assure you that this is an extremely hypocritical country so therein lies part of the problem. Our government is also very much like the Romans in that they do wage “war” all the time in order to keep people busy, employed, distracted and united. It’s the fascist (Republican/Bush) way!