Picture from Bombay. US Congress wants the USA to be like this.
US Congress heaps praise on IITs — What are these idiots thinking? Who votes for them?
The Indian Institutes of Technology, in particular, and the Indian-American community, in general, came in for impassioned praise from the US Congress — the first time the US Congress has honoured a foreign university in this manner — for their significant contributions to society in every profession and discipline.
The US Congress passed House Resolution 227 — introduced by Congressman Tom Davis and co-sponsored by Congressman Bobby Jindal — praising the stellar work done by IIT-ians in all walks of life.
Davis said that the United States must take leaf out of India’s book and devise a strategy to focus on and improve studies in math and sciences.
Experts say that this rare recognition will help IITs solicit US government grants and promote industry collaboration with the IITs for sponsored research and faculty/student exchange programmes.
The Congressional debate ran live on CSPAN with speeches by several Congressmen on the IITs, and when the speaker brought it to vote, it was passed unanimously.
Rep. Joseph Crowley, a Democrat from New York and the chief deputy whip, submitted a statement to the congressional record in support of House Resolution 227.
Do these Congressmen ever ask the following question: If the IIT and its graduates are so great (“in all walks of life”) then why is India a hellhole and why do all these socially responsible grads abandon their own country to come here to get work in the first place? Simple question. America needs answers. A few years ago these same Congressional visionaries were telling us we should all be like the Japanese. I guess it all depends of where they get their money.
insult to America discovered by Z. Smith
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Here is a longish slideshow from Bomaby a traveller took. It’s gives you a feeling for the direction Joe Crowley and our Congress wants to take us.
I was peripherally involved with a lawsuit between a medical doctor of Indian decent and his also Indian wife. They both moved to the US after he got his medical degree in India.
One thing that came out of the trial is that the sole reason he got “accepted” into medical school over there was because his wife’s family put up the money for a “bribe.” He didn’t have to take any tests or pass any exams. He merely had the money so they accepted him.
I’ll certainly remember that the next time I come across of doctor from India who wants to cut into me.
ummm… John, I’m having a little trouble following your logic: a) India is a hell hole so, therefore, b) they graduate thousands of engineers who are so good they can go to a foreign country, America, and take jobs away from Americans who had every possible advantage of culture, language and racial prejudice, so, therefore, c) their Indian schools must suck?
Doesn’t it work the other way around? If their country is so awful (and it definitely is a hellhole in some respects) then in order for them to lift people out of the mire and produce engineers and scientists to take tech jobs and work away from us, they must have a helluva school system!!!
Anyway, this wasn’t about schools. It was about the Congress promoting the idea that American schools are really bad and what they need to fix them up is for Congress (i.e. the Republican Party) to take over and run them Right!!!
That should solve all our problems. 🙂
You can bribe your way into medical school, but it’s not so easy to bribe your way to a degree. You have to pass state or federal standard exams each year, and if you fail a single subject, you have to repeat not just the subject but the whole year.
I am a regular reader of your postings and really praise you observations. Well, for once, you have stretched too far.
Facts first, IITs are not like typical Universities. They enjoy a special status and they were set up with one specific goal; to improve the technical education in India. And they are good at it. Infosys founder Narayan Murthy & Sun Microsystems co-founder Vinod Khosla are IIT alumni’s. You can find more success stories even in Us system.
This Asia week article http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/features/universities2000/rank_country/index.html ranks IITs at 3,4,5,7 & 8 across Asia & Australia.
If you are talking about generic India education system, there is lot to learn and yes you may get a MBBS by paying (not from premier institutes). But IITs and IIMs are of different class and need not directly compared to other Indian Universities.
And finally, stretching the praise of IITs to political and social state of India is sick. If we have a mess here, it is not because of our education system. The problem is population and illiteracy.
Treason is as Treason does. It should be obvious that many our current elites are enamored with anything that isn’t American, and thus stands for equality of rights. I Japan there is a structured social caste system, just as there is in India. It shoudl seem obvious both the current Empress Clintions and King George Bush’s of the US want such a system to evolve. This is attested to by the eco-rape of our county and the eco-treason committed by our leaders.
The time of unabashed Nationalism is upon us, either we must make a choice for our Country and our Culture, or become enslaved to whatever system the elites decided to dole out to we serfs of the land!
I urge people to look into the “Constitutionist Party” and its platform.
IITains do deserve praise. You see, it’s like Gattaca,
Every year, hundreds of thousands of students from India take preparatory tests, coaching, and practice to make it to this elite club.
IITans have continually left India for the US because India until 1991, it was a protected economy and had no avenues for its own geniuses.
The taxpayers who pay for their subsidised fees are not amused. We call it Brain Drain,
Let’s back up…anyone who thinks American Universities are “really bad” should rethink this position. Our Public High Schools may be really bad, but that’s not the same. The IIT is not on par with Cal Berkeley, MIT or CalTech in any way. Give me a break.
Exactly how many Nobel Prize Winners, for example, have come out of IIT compared to Berkeley? And since the IIT is supposedly better than ALL American schools let’s do the Nobel numbers all together. It’s laughable. And if Vinod Khosla is the best you can do then you’ve lost already.
That said I know a slew of these IIT guys as they are all over Silicon Valley and most of them are nice guys with talent. It’s the ones with the superiority complex that I have issue with. This is mostly because they have no reason for it except they’re Brahmins and the IIT has pumped them up more. Then they come over here and lord it over everyone with this weird attitude. Again, this is not everyone, but it’s a lot of guys (all IIT grads) doing it! It’s annoying to say the least.
The reason why there are no Nobel Prize winners from the IITs and IIMs is that these institutions are less focussed on esoteric research and more more focussed in producing industry-ready graduates.
If India is poorly managed, it’s not because of our educational system sucks; it’s because most of our politicians never had an education.
It is for the American government to make laws so that American companies don’t hire foreign workers so they can pay lower wages.
You relax rules when there is a shortage of labor. You complain when there is an excess. You invited Indian doctors because otherwise your health costs would have gone up.
In the United States, you have a form of legitimised corruption called lobbying. Anyone with money in Washington can get bills passed. American legislators, it seems, are ready to sell their nation if the price was right.
I teach a physical science typical American research university. IIT is an excellent university, I would gladly take one of their grads as a postdoc or grad student. American grad student typically look less impressive on paper, i.e. grades and GRE scores but they get overlook for their practical skills. I find that American students usually are better in terms of non-quantifible skills of trouble-shooting and repairing lab instrumentation, designing experiements and just plain seeing the big picture. Usually they have more self-inititive too. On the other hand, their numbers are shrinking. What to do there? We’ll just import students from India and China. American universities are under pressure to adjust their undergrad science curriculum to the “new” type of incoming student. That means watered-down. So the next few decades may not bode well for the sciences/tech in the USA if this keeps up. I blame the poor state of K-12 education with their self-esteem mumbo-jumbo.
I went to school in India for half-a-year and met some of the “outsource” Indian workers.
Those I met were probably intellectually on the level of US community college students, except that they knew math and computer science pretty well.
India’s main “high tech” advantage are the lower wages and the super large worker pool. Even if 85 or 90% of Indians are poorly educated (my guess), it still leaves MILLIONS who can do a decent job.
>> I find that American students usually are better in terms of non-quantifible skills of trouble-shooting and repairing lab instrumentation, designing experiements and just plain seeing the big picture. Usually they have more self-inititive too.
This is a common criticism of South Asian schools with which I have to agree. My wife taught at a (non-technical) graduate school over there and she was APPALLED at their lack of initiative and creativity.
She had to redesign the way she taught and go to work-book “fill in the blank” assignments rather than creative projects.
No kidding… some of her students were on a PhD track but she felt they would struggle with a college-prep US high school assignment.
But, much of high-tech IS about following the rules, so perhaps there may be an advantage with graduates who “think inside the box.”
Hi
I am an iitian and found ur blog pretty interesting. See it is ownderful to have ur comments and an opportunity to answer u.
All indians are not iitians hence india is the way it is.
India has limited funds so no nobel laureates from iits/iisc. but the very fact that us univs accept loadsa students from iit shows u the clear picture. 13 from iit m in mit this year. no other foreign univ except kora4en univshave such nice acceptance rates.
India has been impoverished by colonizers. our kohinoor and all our jewels were looted because of our infighting. we are working for unity. we have to shun our burden of the past and educate ppl.
i do not think that u are wrong in saying that india is poor, wretched as of now. and that is the motivation of an iitian
someone mentioned abt school project and all andthat indians wont be able to do all that.
i’d like to point out that come over to an iit and u will realise that education is complte . iitians are not geeks. wonderful musicians there is a bright side too. but friend for a poor country the focus has to be science and hence the missin projects and assignments that someone pointed out.
India beats us at physics chemistry and maths olympiad every year almost. just that indians arent havin much facilities. doesn’t mean indians are gr8 or americans are fools. indians study according to what they have to.
Please mail me for clarifications. I certainly do praise the us for its better system.
iit are behind yale mit and berkeley for their research and grad studies but not for undergrad studies. i bet that. and visit http://www.ncbs.res
btw mit engineering has maximum professors from iit background.
i think i put my point thru. u want us to teach at mit man what else do u want to know.
Himanshu:
I am from an IIT and as of now I am a grad student at MIT (in Engineering). Can you back up your claim that MIT has “maximum professors from IIT” as you have mentioned in your last post ? GO check out the MIT website and do the math.
The IIt system was set up after independence to produce quality engineers who could “change India” and alleviate the poverty, however, it didnt quite work out that way and most IITians (including me) left for better opportunities.
Am I sorry or penitent that I left my homeland for better opportunities ? Hell, no.
However, I do realize that my education at IIT-M was mostly funded by the Indian taxpayer (which includes my parents) and someday I will pay back that money to the institute.
But, let’s be honest, we are all economic immigrants, and we left for “greener pastures”, so lets cut the lofty moralistic tones out of the discussion, OK ?
As far as research goes, IITs mostly suck royally, because a) Its primarily an undergrad production system and b) it will take a sea change in attitudes and culture to do research there as they do in MIT, Caltech, Stanford etc.
So, to end the discussion
1) IITs produce pretty good undergrads.
2) They may / may not be good at research at the US universities and that depends on their attutudes.
3) We are economic immigrants, and so our primary focus has always been *MONEY*.
4) Let’s just drop the “we are smarter that the rest” attitude. We are not. In terms of publications, Chinese and East Europeans produce more quality work than we do in the US. We are, however, street smart and extremely money wise and know how to use the taxpayer funded education to that end.
Take care.
Haha, what a buffoon. You should fix the english in your post before whining about dumb people in other countries.
I’ve spent a great deal of time and energy recently in a US engineering graduate program.
The majority of students in all my classes were international students.
The majority of international students were from India.
In three of my classes I was the only American citizen attending.
In one of these classes, I was the only non-Indian attending. I can’t recall the number of classes where I was one of two or three Americans in attendance.
Plagiarism rates were very high – would you believe 100% of all web-posted papers in one course? The nature of the plagiarism was wholesale cut-and-paste of other articles and Internet-based publications. All the papers were by teams of international students. When I reported extensive plagiarism to the course professor, she told me that she didn’t want to punish the students involved. “They’re such bright students,” I was told. “Their futures will be destroyed if they’re sent back. It will be a shame if we lose them because they have an engineering background. I think I will lecture them and give them another chance.”
A later examination of these same students’ “post-warning” papers indicated that they were still producing these documents by cutting and pasting other people’s work directly.
Some professors routinely used (and still use) the same exam questions from year to year. I was shown a file filled with heavily Xeroxed copies of previous years’ exams and answers from one professor’s course in experimental design… by an Indian national.
Complaints about the behaviors of international students in group projects were never taken at face value.
I recall one class where the prof. was Chinese and the T.A. was an Indian national. A multi-part assignment was given. In subsequent grading, one of the questions was discarded because “very few people answered it correctly” – I was one of these. However, almost all students were heavily penalized for not putting the answer to another question in a specific format which had not been described in the assignment – the only person to do so was an Indian female in the course who had been able to confer with the TA. No prizes for guessing who got the high grade. I dropped the class – once you’ve seen that this kind of thing can be done, why stick around so that even worse things can happen?
The department bent over backwards to ensure that some Americans would not get through the M.S. program. In my own case, one semester I had a class rescheduled in midsemester for three weeks (6 class sessions) in violation of several regulations governing class schedules – and this created a class conflict. I was one of a very small group of people affected. One required class was not taught for 3 semesters when course requirements were changed – this kept me out of comprehensive exam eligiblity for two years after I had taken the other relevant courses. These were both illegal maneuvers, but there was NO place to go to appeal them.
My experiences boil down to this:
1) American engineering programs do not want Americans in them. This is consonant with demographic projections and concerns by educational institutions about maintaining enrollments amid population declines in this country. It is also reflective of industry desires to import labor and develop offshore capacities, and of governmental foreign policy initiatives, all of which trump the abilities, needs, aspirations, and wishes of American students.
2) The notion that international-student heavy programs foster net educational gains for American students is pure bullshit. They are detracting from the USA’s ability to train Americans.
3) I do think we have something to learn from the experiences of institutions like IIT. How many international students does IIT take in a year? From the US? From anywhere? What are the proportions of international students to domestic students in Indian or Chinese universities? Are there factors present in both that inhibit foreign-born scholars from studying at these institutions? (Don’t give me the “Americans don’t speak foreign languages” argument – I do – that is less of a problem than sheer racism in the institutions we’re discussing).
4) “Cross-cultural” exposure benefits are non-existent. I had a great deal of “experience” working with Indians in this program. I will be extremely reluctant to ever do so again. I used to have a positive view of India generally – I definitely don’t now.
5) Don’t trust universities to adhere to their own standards of conduct. University regulations are a wish list, not an enforced code of behavior – until universities can take their regulations seriously and have accountability, their rules are meaningless, and ethical behavior will vanish.
6) The propaganda train is so effective at promoting international students and workers that it has affected the judgement of those who actually have seen or experienced evidence to the contrary. Find ONE article in the American press on visa programs, international workers, or tech company employment desires, that has ANYTHING positive to say about the American employee.
7) It’s often argued that increasing worker intake via visa programs will reduce offshoring, and therefore must be pursued to retain national competitiveness. However, many skills-based immigrant workers create offshoring enterprises in coordination with their companies, either at the express wishes of their superiors and colleagues, or as entrepreneurs. Folks, it’s not a choice between immigration and outsourcing – one fuels the other.
8) A complaint I hear a lot from “the business community” is that they have a hard time finding Americans who speak and write well, or that are “internationally aware.” This is a blatant lie. These are not the people that are getting hired in the first place. Writing skills may help you keep your job once you obtain it. They will not get you promoted or help you land the job in the first place. The same is true of foreign language skills and current affairs knowledge.
9) I am constantly amazed at the parade of outright gifts and goodwill flowing to India, in this article and Bush’s nuclear technology exchange, given that India’s second largest trading partner is Iran, that India has NEVER been allied with the US in any military action and that India has never been a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
10) Most of all I am amazed at the outpouring of goodwill to India because India has a social repression system that dwarfs South African apartheid in the kinds and severity of crimes committed and the size of the population affected. By one estimate 133 MILLION people in India are “Untouchables” (National Geographic estimate) and considered unequal to the rest of the population – untouchables are routinely killed, injured, mutilated and intimidated, routinely shoved into degrading conditions, and prevented from using otherwise public resources like lake water. The world brought South Africa to its knees in the 1980s, but turns a blind eye to these abhorrent practices. In part this is because the Indian government works very hard at preventing knowledge of this situation to leak out – even US world civilization textbooks have been rewritten to leave this stuff out.
Disclaimer – I’m not against immigration, I don’t even believe in English only. I AM against large-scale ahistoric “skills-based” immigration, particularly where the numbers involved exceed the numbers of new jobs created, which are still lower than the number of people entering the workforce in this country. There is a not-so-subtle element of racism present in such efforts that puts American sovereignty and ideals at risk and furthermore endangers the democracy we have worked so long to build and defend.