2005 GM/Opel, 59mpg diesel-hybrid, never produced!
General Motors Corp. will likely unveil a prototype plug-in hybrid at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit in January, a local paper reported on Friday.The advanced technology vehicle would have an extended driving range on battery power and would also have a diesel or gasoline engine that could power the car when the battery was low, the Detroit News said, citing unnamed GM officials.
Plug-in hybrids are gas-electric vehicles that can recharge their batteries with an extension cord and a normal wall outlet.
GM, which is trying to recover from a $10.6 billion loss in 2005 and stop a slide in U.S. market share, has been criticized for relying heavily on gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles. This year, it has also drawn sharp criticism for its decision to kill its EV1 electric car program.
The automaker eventually collected and destroyed almost all of the 1,000 EV1 cars, prompting the making of a documentary titled “Who Killed the Electric Car?”
In an interview with Motor Trend published in July, GM Chief Executive Rick Wagoner said killing the $1 billion EV1 program was his worst decision. He said it did not affect the automaker’s profitability, but did hurt its image.
Let’s hope GM ventures out into the marketplace, this time. They killed the EV1. They never went into production with the Astra pictured at the top of the page. GM is capable of building a competitive vehicle — if they have the courage and smarts to do so.
When he said it didn’t hurt their profitability, do you think he might have meant that it did hurt their profitability?
Having a car that breaks even lowers overall profit margins, but I think that’s better than the rest of GM right now.
Have these electric/hybrid cars been developed that actually save money for the customer? Most of them have a higher upfront cost. Leaving that aside, have any been developed that actually lower pollution? Most electric cars just transfer the pollution from the car to the power plant, and you end up with more pollution because it’s more efficient to burn gasoline.
#1 — you betcha!
Look, it takes a certain amount of energy to move a vehicle a set distance down the highway. Gasoline is always going to be more efficient and cleaner than any vehicle that draws power off of the electric grid. The reason is that the conversion and transmission losses for electricity are enormous.
That said, in a niche market, like LA or the Frisco bay area, you are at least transferring the pollution that is being generated by driving the car outside of the immediate metropolitan area. If the Juice happens to be generated from the hydro power in the northwest, even better.
Now, lets see, they spent a BILLION bucks for the EV1 program, and managed to get 1000 cars on the street. Now, I’m sure they did not get 1,000,000 bucks apiece for the EV1. And about the time they stopped renewing leases, it was coming time to start replacing the batteries. Where he said it did not hurt them on the bottom line was that they simply stopped the hemorrhaging from that dead end program.
While it may have hurt their image some what to kill the program, the EV1 was NOT the cure all for our energy nor our pollution problems. Besides, they already have done the basic research, and could probably have production up and running in a years time if they had any inkling that it could possibly be a viable program.
IT’S NOT!!!
Electric vehicles are too expensive, to limited, and have too few or no real benefits to justify their existence. Unfortunately, automakers will be compelled to continue to pour money down that rat hole to appease the greenies.
What I would like to know is why there are no Diesel hybrids out there yet.
Don
I for one do think the Big 3 deserve the criticism they are getting – they were very arrogant in their decision making for a very long time. I would, however, be heartened to see them make a real attempt at plug-in hybrid technology. All-electric isn’t the answer… but a plug-in with an efficient combustion engine (diesel or otherwise) could prove to be enormously effective.
I hope they do have a strategy for this technology that is not a gimmick, or a marketing campaign. It could be what turns them around while at the same time reducing some dependence on oil.
Gee, Don — I guess we all should have gasoline-powered generators for our homes.
diesel hybrids were delayed by the lack of low-pollution diesel fuel, which is finally here.
Detroit’s dislike of gasoline hybrids (for economy) is driven by their minds, the public’s love of them is driven by their hearts. Detroit did the math and determined that gasoline hybrids made no economic sense. They didn’t understand that most car buyers don’t do math.
all the Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) issues with hybrids aside, I still think its good to make and market them in the interest of Reseach and Development; that is, we might eventually get it better than standard engines, or at least learn some other valuable technology.
This is great news. For short trips, grid-supplied power costs the equivalent of $0.35 a gallon gas, so yes, it’s a tremendous saving for the consumer. Single source pollution is much easier to control and easier to replace with nonpetroleum sources. When I plug in at my house it’s 100% wind generated power from Exel. Furthermore, with enough plug-enabled hybrids plugged in, the utilities have the cheapest storage of excess power by far. Everyone wins, especially the environment. cmon, Don. get on board. (oh, btw, the very first hybrid vehicle was a diesel electric hybrid. it’s called a locomotive)
#6 If it was possible, and made sense, I would be all for it.
It makes sense to use coal, rivers, and uranium to provide electricity to your house. It does not make sense to use coal, rivers, and uranium to power your car.
Also, the expense and maintenance issues make it more economical to provide electricity from more centralized sources.
The world is rapidly approaching a crisis in energy usage. There is a finite supply of fossil fuels. While the amount is huge, it is going to run out some day. Renewables cannot make up the difference. Unless they get Fusion power to work, things are going to get ugly for my great grand children.
#9 .35 a mile seems a little low, but I have no data to dispute you.
Now, did you factor in the $10000 dollars worth of batteries made from highly toxic substances that you are going to have to replace every couple of years?
No power company supplies 100% renewable energy to a particular home. Every generator and every customer on the grid is interconnected. If one area is producing a little more right now, it is shifted over to an area that is using a little more.
I was driving down I 39 in north central Illinois a couple of months ago, past a large wind farm with about 3 dozen very large windmills, all sitting there not moving. Where we their customers getting their power during that lull in the wind?
Renewable energy is a part of the puzzle, but not the total solution.
Don
GM hybrid? I guess I should cancel my Z06 order.
Not!
As many of us said (I stand on the shoulders of giants), central production of electricity by lots of means is better than burning petrochemicals in the car. To repeat loudly:
* stopping pollution at a single source is much easier and much more effective than doing it in the car
* recharging end-user batteries during non-peak hours is a great use of some renewables such as hydroelectric.
* some sources (mainly coal) are so ‘available’ in this country that by using them, even inefficiently (converting to electricity, lots of pollution controls) is much better than importing oil, at least for the near and mid future.
The plug in car is a NO-BRAINER and we need it now.
At the end of the day, we will stop using cars and go to light rail and other mass transit for the bulk of our transportation needs. It’s not just the energy costs, it’s the enourmous cost of the infrastructure, new cars every n years, highways, parking lots, police, increased medical, insurance, gas stations, rubber for tires, glass for windows, etc.
The real cost of automotive travel is immeasurable. Much of it is deep in government subsidy. One might even say that the entire iraq war is part of the cost of automotive travel. Where I live (near LA) the newest freeway is the 105. It cost NINE THOUSAND DOLLARS PER INCH to build.
Then there are the long term costs. The pollution. The global warming. The loss of productive time while millions sit in traffic each day. Cars stink. Literally. But we love them. Cars are so sexy–they symbolize freedom. We sell our collective souls for automobiles.
Cars cost everything we have, and we have more than anyone at any time in history–and we spent it all to go zoom. We must be illogical children.
Most of these commentors need to do their homework! The FACT is that an electric vehicle is FAR MORE EFFICIENT than any internal combustion vehicle. It is also a FACT that grid produced power is cleaner than burning gasoline. If you search for and read the book “The Car That Could” (which is only about how the EV-1 electric car was designed and built) you will learn that GM didn’t spend 1 Billion in developement, they spent far LESS. Corporate America is well known for exagerating figures like that.
If people were to have the option to buy an electric vehicle, they would “re-fuel” the battery by charging at night, during “off peak” times when there is EXCESS power available – even in CA. FACT is, an electric car like the EV-1, when properly designed (EV-1 used a multi-phase AC motor) has only 1 moving part in the ENTIRE drivetrain! The FACT that is doesn’t wear out is one of the MAJOR factors in GM deciding to kill the electric car.
The ONLY thing of importance here is the claim that it will be a “plug-in” hybrid, which in lieu of a real EV is a step in the right direction. Face it, electric vehicles REDUCE polution no matter how you slice it. By charging at night they can (in large enough numbers) ‘load balance’ the grid, which can eliminate the need to build more power plants that only serve to increase available power during ‘peak’ usage.
The above claimed battery replacement every couple of years is WRONG. The Toyota RAV-4 EV (using the no longer available Panasonic EV-95 nimh battery) is STILL running strong among the handful of owners and lessors in California after 8 years. The ONLY battery replacements to date were reported to have been due to collision damage.
Yes, an electric vehicle is the answer to our transprotation problems and our countries oil addiction. I hope you all will take the time to REALLY research the facts rather than ‘parrot’ the news media/corporate mouth pieces that put out nothing but dis-information.
JUSt give me a steam powered car…
I just want a cheap, simple plug in car that can go for about an hour. 90% of my driving is less than an hour. So this would be a great second car.
It looks like car-makers are starting to come around, but it’s all still talk about research programs and prototypes — no commitments to production.
You can find documentation or pointers to resources about lots of these questions about the relative well-to-wheels efficiency and emissions of electricity vs. gasoline, battery costs and lifetime, etc., at the FAQ of the nonprofit CalCars.org
Felix Kramer, Founder, The California Cars Initiative
Michael, the EV car adds to electricity usage. How can more electrical power used at night lead to load balancing? This is new power usage, transferred from gasoline usage.To reduce the load on the electrical system, you would have to replace electrics with gas powered cars.
The only proof I need that all automakers (domestic or foreign) want these cars to fail are the odd designs they roll out with the new engines. How about a straight forward car or truck with this technology?
AB CD,
The way that EV’s can load balance is by utilizing the drive train created by AC Propulsions (who invented the drivetrain used by GM on the EV-1 platform, and is the most advanced currently available) which by design can act as a large ‘UPS’ to back feed power into the grid when not used for transportation. Most EV’s would be used (at least initially) as second vehicles and that would (presumably) leave a fully charged EV in the garage for a significant part of the day.
The ‘demand’ on the grid is NOT at night where there is EXCESS available. There is only excessive demand during the day, when EV’s (for the majority of cases) are never plugged in.
Having gas powered cars does nothing to increase or decrease grid usage, it just adds to polution, keeps us dependant on oil, keeps us lining the pockets of the oil industry (who, from their perspective aren’t experincing an ‘oil crisis’, just record profits – no incentive to change anything).
Additionally, most people using EV’s (call them early adopters) also utilize solar power so as to get completely independant from utilities. There have been recent developements in the solar industry that can make it possible to effectively use solar panels in areas that don’t have the sun exposure that California typically does. One of the founders of Google is currently building a factory to make these very efficient solar panels here in the US. They were invented in South Africa by one of the Universities there, and have arranged manufacturing contracts with several German companies.
Back in the 70s, I found a funky self-published book by a guy who makes his own alcohol using a solar distiller.
He uses this alcohol to run his car, then he sells the fermented mash to some cattle ranchers.
I used to live in California’s Central Valley where they throw away TONS AND TONS of fruit culls. They plow them back into the fields. I’m pretty sure a farmer would let you “borrow” the culls before they got plowed under. (especially, if you volunteered to do it.)
The Valley also have plenty of sun. It would have been perfect to try this out except that I lived in an apartment.
Don, you have no idea what you’re talking about. The energy efficiency of a gasoline engine in a car is terrible. It almost all goes to heat. The average efficiency of the electrical grid is 93%. A lot of the power on the other end of that grid comes from hydro and nuclear, most of the rest from natural gas or coal, both of which done in a way that is WAY more efficient and less polluting then a car. Stop making things up just so you can feel good about driving your Hummer around.
Read this:
http://teslamotors.com/display_data/21stCentElectricCar.pdf